If you ask a Liberal Democrat what should be done to end the war in Afghanistan, the likely answer will be…. bring in proportional representation. Actually, if you ask a Liberal Democrat for an answer to any political problem… introducing proportional representation will likely creep in there somewhere.
Last night on Newsnight, asked what could be done to clean up the House of Commons in the wake of the expenses fiasco, Tory Grant Schapps said… we need to have the Select Committees of the House elected by all MPs. Well, 3 cheers to Grant for remembering what his Party Leader had said a couple of days earlier, but… a solution??? Get real.
But then we had Potty Polly, one of the founder members of Woy of the Wadicals SDP, who was allowed to slink back into the Labour Party when that went tits up, and the author of a book on greed and inequality (although it isn’t clear which of her many homes she was living in when she wrote the book). Polly’s solution to the expenses fiasco….
Yes, you’ve guessed it…. proportional representation!
Whatever you may think of Gordon Brown’s politics, judgement or abilities… surely the fact that he loathes the likes of Polly sodding Toybee should count for something!
- For a fundamental and irreversible shift in the balance of power and wealth in favour of working people and their families...
-
On the Side of the Angels
- A Very Public Sociologist
- A week is a long time in politics
- Andy Howell
- Beau Bo D'Or
- Bench
- Bloggerheads
- Chicken Yoghurt
- Councillor Mike Leddy
- Councillor Tim
- Dave Osler
- Enemies of Reason
- Fat Man in the Bathtub
- Frank Owen's Paintbrush
- Freemania
- From One End of Kent
- Grimmer Up North
- Hagley Road to Ladywood
- Hopi Sen
- Jailhouse Lawyer
- Jon's Union Blog
- Julian's Musings
- Labour List
- Labour News
- Labour of Love
- Labour2
- Left Foot Forward
- Left of the Line
- Liberal Conspiracy
- Liverpool Lefty
- Luke's Blog
- Ministry of Truth
- Never Trust a Hippy
- Next Left
- Obsolete
- Occupied Country
- Our Man in Hanoi
- Paul Linford
- Political Hack
- Putting Members First
- Raincoat Optimism
- Skipper
- Skuds
- Slugger O'Toole
- Stephen Newton's Diary
- The Daily (Maybe)
- The Methodist Preacher
- The Middle of the Line
- The Plastic Hippo
- The YamYam
- Though Cowards Flinch
- Three Score Years & Ten
- Tom Watson MP
The Dark Side
The Media
-
Recent Posts
-
Archives
- February 2013
- January 2013
- December 2012
- November 2012
- October 2012
- September 2012
- August 2012
- July 2012
- June 2012
- May 2012
- April 2012
- March 2012
- February 2012
- January 2012
- December 2011
- November 2011
- October 2011
- September 2011
- August 2011
- July 2011
- June 2011
- May 2011
- April 2011
- March 2011
- February 2011
- January 2011
- December 2010
- November 2010
- October 2010
- September 2010
- August 2010
- July 2010
- June 2010
- May 2010
- April 2010
- March 2010
- February 2010
- January 2010
- December 2009
- November 2009
- October 2009
- September 2009
- August 2009
- July 2009
- June 2009
- May 2009
- April 2009
- March 2009
- February 2009
- January 2009
- December 2008
- November 2008
- October 2008
- September 2008
- August 2008
- July 2008
- June 2008
- May 2008
- April 2008
- March 2008
- February 2008
- January 2008
- December 2007
- November 2007
- October 2007
- September 2007
- August 2007
- July 2007
- June 2007
- May 2007
- April 2007
- March 2007
- February 2007
- January 2007
- December 2006
- November 2006
- September 2006
- August 2006
- April 2006
- March 2006
- February 2006
- January 2006
- December 2005
- November 2005
- August 2005
- July 2005
- June 2005
- May 2005
- April 2005
- March 2005
- February 2005
- January 2005
- December 2004
- November 2004
- October 2004
- September 2004
- August 2004
- July 2004
- June 2004
- May 2004
- April 2004
- March 2004
- February 2004
Meta
She is a deeply stupid individual.
A list system under PR would simply prevent voters from punishing those individual politicians whose behaviour they deem unacceptable.
Actually if you asked a Lib Dem what to do on Afghanistan they wouldn’t say PR. They would took at the situation in the country and then decide if we as a country are actually benifiting the region if not them we should pull out as their isn’t a point us staying their especially if we are not wanted!
Oooooooh! Such bitchiness on this glorious day! Roll on Thursday!
Another thing, matey, MP for Sandwell. A valley overlooked by The Hawthorns, one mile from my birthplace. A place where, as kids, we played amongst the old gun and ammunition bunkers. A place where my twin brother’s grave also tops the Newton Road slope. Sacrilege! You should be a baggies supporter.
“Whatever you may think of Gordon Brown’s politics, judgement or abilities… surely the fact that he loathes the likes of Polly sodding Toybee should count for something!”
Fair enough, you do have a good point there Bob. He can’t be all bad.
Bob, if you ask many Labour supporters what would make a difference, they will also say PR.
We are sick and tired of this unaccountable system where MPs reside in seats for life and a single party can rule a council for decades on a minority of the vote. It breeds corrupt and inept governance.
Have you guys never heard of ‘open’ list PR or the single transferable vote?
In Ireland (under STV) they have FIVE TIMES the number of independent MPs in their parliament than we do.
Labour members (and voters) I speak to, are also sick and tired of being ignored. The party suppresses the member’s views because there is no choice. It is a stitch-up between Labour and Tory led government. PR will bring competition between the parties and make them more accountable to their both their members and voters because the leadership know that they can go elsewhere and their vote will count to elect someone – rather than just piling up a majority in a safe seat or going to someone with no chance of ever being elected.
It all comes down to politics in the end – or lack thereof on the part of the likes of Ms Toynbee and many on the right of the Labour Party.
Back in the days of the traitorous SDP a section of those on the right of the party split because they lost the argument on policy. Policy that came into being precisely because of the democratic gains that the membership and unions made inside the party.
And it is precisely the loss of these democratic gains that has largely allowed MPs (some Labour ones anyway) to get away with governmental policy atrocities and huge expenses fiddles as they have become unaccountable to the rest of the party.
So Ms Toynbee and those on the right of the party, wringing their hands over all of this, yet again try to sidestep the inconvenience of members and affiliated unions holding the leadership to account by proposing the even more anti-democratic option of PR instead.
Quelle surprise!
An electoral system that allows voters to choose not just between parties, but between candidates of those parties (whether an open list or STV) would give voters the chance at every election to vote against MPs who haven’t completely lost the plot or do nowt for their constituency, but without running the risk of electing a Tory. If anything other than rebuilding mass membership political parties run from the grassroots can sort out sleaze it would be that.
oldrightie… I don’t know how many times I have to tell you this in order to get it through to you. I’ll try small words.
I am not an MP. OK?
Also, West Bromwhich Albion is not in my Ward, and I was born in Birmingham. I don’t believe in switching football teams every time I move house either. Thank heaven, because I lived in the South once (Coventry) and no-one really supports them.
Ian – spot on! Jenkins, Owen, Rodgers and Shirley Poppet were frightened of mandatory re-selection. I wonder why?
Bob, Wow, we agree on something (re PR).
Polly is showing the outward and visible signs of the death throes of this Govt.
There are decent Labour people out there who must be apalled at what is going on, and Polly suggests PR will save the Govt. Any attempt to gerrymander the voting system would lead to an even more crushing defeat.
The voting system might well change over time, but it wont change to save Brown’s skin. Oh and the LD’s would be mental to cosy up to such a weak and discredited Govt
bob, nice to be ignored. Nothing to say on the substance of the debate as usual. This tribal anti lib dem and attacks on polly show the paucity of your debate. I wonder how much of taxpayers money you have claimed on expenses?
Nothing to say that we haven’t already bickered about Neil. That may interest you, and no doubt readers can pop along to your site if they want more, but personally I find single issue anoraks to be boring.
The answer to your question is easy though.
Not a penny piece. Ever!
OK?
Oh deary me I did enjoy that Nice one Bob !
New Labour should do the simple thing. Stop mucking about ,stick with Brown and argue on the record . The last ten years were not all bad and just as New Labour were over praised they are currently over denigrated
Nonetheless on the Polls I have seen anything could happen , just spare me that prat Purnell.
Bob, so you are allowed to slag PR off with a load of discredited myths, but any discussion about it is too boring, how very convenient.
Good to hear you haven’t claimed a penny. Is your seat marginal?
Neil, on this site I’m allowed to do whatever I want. In this instance that means I do not want a boring re-run of your arguments in favour of PR… because single issue people can be a tad…. well, obsessive and boring. We have had the discussion here already. I didn’t move you one inch, and you didn’t persuade me one jot. End of story. Incidentally, it shows the level of your obsession. I didn’t slag off PR… nor use any discredited myths, but don’t allow that to ruin your rant. I slagged off Polly Toynbee for attempting to say it would resolve the issue of politicians on the fiddle.
No, if I recall correctly we won over 50% of the vote over the Tories, Lib Dems and Greens.
Bob, I am not single issue, and although not directly – you not so subtlely slag off PR by calling anyone who calls for it a lunatic. Ah, yes wonderful Gordon who is leading (if that is the word) Labour to the lowest nadir in its history. With friends like that, give the Labour party Polly Toynbee anyday.
Bloody hell Bob! Another whiny loser who seems to think that his inalienable right to bleat on repetitively and without intellectual merit is somehow more significant than the POLITICS of this matter and how it affects millions of people.
One might despair but for the small pleasure to be had in baiting such egotistical fools
Neil: read the posts above – those of us on the left who care about holding our elected representatives to account chose to do that via the internal democracy of the Labour Party and the unions. When that was achieved a slew of right-wingers in the party (not coincidentally supporters of PR and including your beloved Ms Toynbee) left to form the SDP because they didn’t like the democratic decision of the majority.
It’s not about you, it’s not really about the merits of PR, it’s about the British labour movement deciding for itself what is in its own best interest. Don’t like that? Boo-hoo – no-one gives a sh*t!
Ian, what internal democracy of the Labour party? It is people like you and Bob Piper that have brought this great party to its knees and 17% in the opinion polls!!! You are clearly not democrats, you are bullies.
Stay in the party long enough and head nod at the leadership enough and a safe seat will come your way. That is not democracy, it is a travesty.
Bob probably deludes himself into thinking he is democratically elected but his seat has been Labour for decades and will remain Labour (under this system) long after he is dead, whatever donkey the party chooses. I also notice Bob is the least popular of the Labour candidates – getting the fewest votes!
Bob, not a penny? It seems you received £17,217 TAX FREE in ‘allowances’ from Sandwell Council in year ending March 2006 (the last year I could get figures for, it is probably much more now).
This is equivalent to a job paying around £25,000. This is more than the national average wage, and certainly more than most get in a poor area like Sandwell. What do you spend this money on? You probably only have to attend a couple of meetings a week at most.
http://www.laws.sandwell.gov.uk/ccm/content/corporateservices/legalanddemocratic/members-allowances-2006.en
Ian and Bob: Call it ‘boring’ or ‘single issue’ so you can avoid real debate on the subject (Whats wrong with single issue anyway? I suppose suffragettes were single issue, but they were still right weren’t they?).
If you have any belief in democratic debate, at least comment on the below article by someone who actually knows what they are talking about. If not, we know what you really are, a bunch of bullies content in your little world that excludes others from a real say.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/31/european-elections-labour
This is the way the brains of people like Neil Harding work. Apparently because I get £18,000 a year (not tax free, but taxed at 40%, so I’m not sure how he translates that up to £25,000) – which I do not a claim, but is determined by a panel external to the Council – and for which I have never voted – then Neil Harding must be right about PR.
So, if someone who advocates PR – Alan Johnson for instance – has a Ministerial salary of £137,000, and claims £131,000 in allowances, then presumably I am nearly 15 times more right than he is.
Hey, I wonder how much Fintan O’Toole (the author of the piece Harding points us to) coins in each year as deputy editor of a newspaper? I bet it’s more than £18,000, so he can’t be right.
Harding, you are an idiot.
Neil: your fundamental error is mistaking what goes on on a blog for democratic debate. Here’s the Fisher-Price version for your benefit:
(i) blog – a bunch opinionated to$$ers (you, me, Bob, et al) pi$$ing into the ether;
(ii) democratic debate – a bunch of people meeting to discuss and vote on something that makes a tangible difference in the real world – think party/union meetings.
You also miss the point about the internal democracy of the Labour Party. Yes you’re right there is very little of that at the moment. There was a lot more of it back in the early 1980s, fought for and defended by people like Bob, myself and many others on the left of the Labour Party.
And your bloody PR heroes didn’t like it; they didn’t like being held to account on policy matters by the membership and affiliated unions; they didn’t like the fact that they might be deselected if they just went off and did their own thing; so they left and formed their own party. You can read, can’t you Neil??
Bob, you are trying to change the subject again- I never said anything about earnings and political viewpoint. You used a typical politicians trick by saying you claimed nothing on expenses while neglecting to mention the allowance you pocket.
As for allowances being taxed. According to expenses rules under Section 198 ICTA 1988 – “A deduction for tax purposes may be claimed by councillors for such expenses provided they are incurred wholly and exclusively and necessarily in the performance of their duties as councillors and are met from their taxable allowances”. Are you telling me you have never done this?
You still haven’t said what you spend this taxpayer funded ‘allowance’ on? You said you earn more than enough and don’t need it, so why not pay it back?
I was not using any political ‘trick’. You asked me a question (totally unrelated to anything else on the post in question) which clearly and specifically indicated I had ‘claimed’ something, and I answered that by saying I hadn’t. I pay 40% of my allowances in tax and have never attempted to do anything other than that, so that’s the end of your latest attempted smear.
If this gibberish is unrelated to your views on PR, please explain exactly what my allowances (or non-expenses) perhaps you could explain what on earth you are twittering on about.
Latest attempted smear? Not that this is a smear but what else have I said?
This is not about smearing you Bob, this is about pointing out that you do in fact get money off the taxpayer despite your lovely ‘not a penny’ slogan. I also love this ‘not that I can recall’ bit that you have used on past posts. You seasoned politicians can’t help but cover your backs.
Is it related to PR? Well now you mention it, I think the fact that you support a system that means you are holed up for life in a safe seat – just because you have brown-nosed the party leadership long enough is relevant. No wonder you love the present system.
I haven’t been hiding what I get in allowances, it is published in the local media and distributed through the door of everyone in my constituency. How is that not open and transparent?
You asked a specific question. Now I know politicians have a reputation for not answering the question, but I apologise for not resorting to that trick and answering the question I was asked.
So far you have indicated I was:
Slagging off PR (Proved to be incorrect)
Pushing discredited myths (Wrong again)
Claiming expenses (Three in a row – you win a prize)
Not paying tax (oops, wrong again)
Taking advantage of PR (What, with 50%+ of the vote. Oh dear, wrong again).
Do you want to carry on until you win the coconut? You’re on a roll.
Incidentally, having taken the time to check my reference to ‘recall’ I think you will find I said “If I recall correctly we won over 50% of the vote…”
And I did recall correctly. Back in your box now, you’re not doing very well.
Bob, Wrong on all counts.
You imply everyone who advocates PR is ‘potty’ or a ‘boring anorak’.
‘Expenses’, ‘allowances’ – It is a play on words, still means the taxpayer gives you money.
Councillors do not have to pay tax on allowances (see above). I have no way of proving what you do with it.
In a seat where Labour candidates always get 50% of the seat that sort of proves my point about it being a silly system. Draw the boundaries slightly differently and you would lose your seat no matter how good or bad you are.
Finally you said ‘as far as I can recall’ about your expenses in a previous post (which if you actually read what I put you would know).
Ian, as it happens I dislike all of the gang of four, but that has nothing to do with the merits or otherwise of PR.
It is not right-wingers who are leaving the Labour party. The Labour party membership is left with mostly right-wingers.
OK, which parliamentary party supports first-past-the-post unanimously – the Tories.
Unless you believe the Tories are to the left of Labour – your jibe at PR supporters hardly stands up does it?
Harding, you are an imbecile. The difference is between that which is ‘claimed’ (expenses) and that which is paid as a salary (allowances).
In case it has evaded your dimwitted mind you will note the distinction between the two in the Daily Telegraph for the last 3 weeks. As far as I am aware (not a trick, but something which says I haven’t read every article) there has not been any fuss about politicians pay, but there has been an almighty bloody kerfuffle about what they ‘claim’.
You asked what I claimed.
I said nothing, which is correct.
You then invented an amount I received as an allownce for being a councillor, which is not dissimilar to that paid to councillors throughout the country, and tried to imply I was lying.
You are a fool, and that is why I call you an imbecile, not because of your views on PR. Idiots like you do more to discredit PR than I could ever do.
bob, i did not ‘invent’ an amount, i linked to sandwell council site which states you got 17,217 pounds in 1996. The ACA MPs get is called an allowance. Keep the insults coming, it shows you are losing the argument.
You are a liar and an imbecile.
You equated it to £25,000, whereas in fact I get less than half of that amount.
Do I have to spell out the notion of ‘claim’ again to you you numbskull.
bob, did you get 17,217 pounds in allowance in 2006? Cos that is what it says on sandwell council website. You can’t admit when u r wrong can u? The MP expenses furore is over ther ACA – Additional Costs ‘Allowance’. If you think your allowance is wrong, why do you accept it? You say you didn’t vote for it, but that is no different to the ‘in the rules’ defence.
No I didn’t, because as I have tirelessly attempted to get through your thick skull, I pay tax on all of my allowance.
I have also attempted to explain the distinction between a ‘claim’ – like the ACA – and something which is paid automatically and does not have to be claimed. But for reasons I cannot understand, but which probably mean you are either too thick or incapable of reading the language, you choose to misinterpret the difference between the two. You are a tiresome and rather stupid person, and I have tried to be patient with you and explain in small words, but from now on you will not be getting an answer if you persist in asking the same stupid question.
bob, this is tiresome, i assume you work full time and ’30-40 hours on average’ with council business, so i don’t understand how you can blog for hours writing this rubbish. Assuming you telling the truth, which i doubt, you are still pocketing 9-10k out of that 17k and that was in 2006 so higher now. If you so wealthy to pay 40% tax why do u accept it? You are using ‘its the rules’ as a defence.
(yawn) boring!
Boys, boys! This back and forth in the comments is so unseemly…
Surely this should be settled by a-no-holds-barred cage fight? ‘Two men enter, one man leaves’, and all that…?
Bloody hell. Time to pack it in. The batty Jules has commented.
Am I too late to make a bet?
Bob, you are a liar (or you can’t count) – how many votes did you get? You said you got over 50% so would have won under any system – wrong! There were 1663 votes against you and you got 1592 votes. Don’t you even check your own results you arrogant git?
http://www.laws.sandwell.gov.uk/ccm/content/corporateservices/legalanddemocratic/elections/election-2006/abbey-ward—results—elections-2006.en
When you can’t even tell the truth about that, what can we believe?
Does this mean you are now going to stand down as most people voted against you in this ward? Democrat, my arse!
Wow. After 4 days you finally got something right.
Entry after entry, full of myths, lies, and pure bullshit, and I admit it, I got it wrong. I only got just over 48% of the votes cast. Law of averages I suppose.
So… who should I stand down in favour of… as a democrat? Should my 48% share of the vote mean I stand down for a tory with less than a third of the votes cast. I know you are a crypto tory, and that is probably why you favour PR, so I shouldn’t be surprised if that was the result you wanted.
I find your reference to your arse to be…. errm, interesting. What are you trying to tell me?
Bob, you are the Tory. Only the Tories universally support the present system as you do.
As your Labour colleagues do get over 50% of the vote in your ward, you should stand down for another Labour candidate that is properly selected by an open primary. Or better still we have a proper electoral system. Then if you were elected, you could claim proper legitimacy.
God! You really cannot count – it is less than 3 days, not 4. I knew you were bad, but not even being able to count to 3. And you call me an imbecile!
It truly seems like a lifetime. Has anyone else any ideas as to how you get rid of this boring Toynbee soundalike? I’ve tried the usual stuff like banter, insults etc. but like a particularly sticky piece of dog shit on your shoe, the smell remains even when you think you’ve scraped it off.
Neil, I am reluctant to ban people from this site for simply being an idiot, but you are stetching that to the limit. I’m aware you are doing this to try to attract people to your deathly boring blog… but you are boring me rigid with your stupidity.
Bob: let’s have a democratic PR blogvote on what to do with Neil “Pretty Polly” Harding…
What would you like to do to Neil Harding:
(a) stuff him with spoilt Euro election ballot papers;
(b) lock him up in a Tory MP’s duck house;
(c) hand him over to French farmers planning on blockading and barbecuing a British sheep;
(d) set him adrift on a Euro wine lake of undrinkable Spanish plonk?
Under an appropriate system of PR Neil’s ample frame will be divided into four in proportion to the votes cast and each part will be treated accordingly.
Just a helpful suggestion *ahem*