(spit) I agree with the Lib Dems….

Posted on February 26, 2008 by bobpiper

I hate to say this but… I agree with the Lib Dems on their attempt to get a resolution on our continued membership of the EU. Yes, I know it was a stunt, and the whole think smacks of the sort of student gesture politics the Lib Dems enjoy so much… but in terms of the principle, I think there are a couple of things to be said for it.
Firstly, a purely political move. It would force Cameron’s Conservatives to put their money where their mouths are. The fact is, like Labour in opposition, the Tory front bench are all mouth and no trousers on this. They have no intention of doing anything, not a thing, zilch, sweet F all, about the Lisbon treaty or the EU in general should they succeed to power. Like the Labour and Lib Dem front bench, they are sold, hook line and sinker on the EU and further European integration. They signed the Single European Act, they signed Maastricht, for God’s sake, and any Tories who still actually believe that their leadership have got even the slightest Eurosceptic tendencies are either barking mad or delusional. The Lib Dem motion would result in Labour voting against… and the Tories squirming in their underwear to find a reason to abstain.
Secondly, we are not in the same Common Market that people voted to remain in by 2 votes to one in 1975. The EU has massively more power and direct influence over our lives than the old common trading agreement, and these powers have been ceded to Europe without the consent of the British people.
I’ll put my cards on the table. I voted against Common Market membership, but unlike some on the left and right, I accepted the result and reluctantly accepted the will of the British people. Having said that I have consistently supported campaigns to oppose every attempt to transfer sovereignty to the EEC or EU ever since. I think a referendum campaign on continuing membership should be based around a campaign to democratise the institutions of the EU, and if that meant a ‘No’ vote would result in some sort of phased withdrawal, I think we would have to be bound by that too.
However, as I say, I don’t think the front benches of any of the three major parties would allow any such referendum to take place… and actually, if it did, I strongly suspect people wouldn’t vote for an isolationist position. They would be petrified by the notion of being ‘out their in the cold’ as we would be told in the campaign.
But if we are going to have a referendum, then let us at least be honest about it. The swivel-eyed Tory loons aren’t interested in a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty – the majority of those calling for a referendum couldn’t tell you why other than spouting cliches about the Labour manifesto. Unlike their front bench spokespersons though, what they want is a chance to vote against the EU – on anything!!

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9 Responses to (spit) I agree with the Lib Dems….

  1. newmania says:
    February 27, 2008 at 9:07 am

    Now you see when you think about something you can be quite interesting , for a swivel eyed loon… There I something in this of course, and yet there is nothing in it. You are playing a trick of time. The left were ,as you with your antediluvian vintage will recall , the main opposition to the so called Common Market . The rapprochement between the left majority and the fact of our reduced status as country, is actually because we ere sold a free trade agreement which was revealed to be a protectionist social democratic super state as time went on. For this reason the same people who supported it initially, like me , find themselves the most against it . Margaret Thatcher was one of the first to cross this Rubicon
    It occurred to no-one that we would actually cease to retain vital control over our own country and apart from farmers and fishermen , few are really aware of the extent to which their votes do not matter . As each new group wakes up each is confronted with the essential question .

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  2. Letters From A Tory says:
    February 27, 2008 at 9:37 am

    You can’t seriously be suggesting that people like Osborne and Davis support the EU? Cameron will be removing the Conservatives from the EPP in 2009 as well, which isn’t a particularly pro-EU stance either.
    Obviously they could pursue an anti-EU stance more aggressively if they wanted to, but that will deflect from the current debate about a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty (even though it might start to appear in future).

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  3. Bob Piper says:
    February 27, 2008 at 10:04 am

    newmania… I love that bit about Thatcher being one of the first to spot all this happening. the daft old bat is one of those chiefly responsible. Didn’t she read the Single European Act before signing the bloody thing. It was the SEA which set the timetable for Maastricht, it was the SEA which introduced the harmonisation of European laws for heaven’s sake!
    She actually makes my point perfectly. In power she bowed the kneee to the EEC… as soon as she was out of office she suddenly became a raving euro-sceptic!
    Letters from a Tory… (see above)… Davis was the Tory whip on Maastricht. One of those leading the campaign of vilification against the Tory rebels who were insulted and spat upon by their own side for resisting the Treaty. For lord’s sake, wake up and smell the coffee! As soon as these people get a whiff of power they will be bending over backwards to sign away even more powers.
    At least Brown resisted the headlong charge into the Euro while he was in office too! Not as an opposition opportunist trying to appeal to Sun readers.

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  4. Letters From A Tory says:
    February 27, 2008 at 11:55 am

    Indeed he was given that responsibility many years ago, but that’s not the whole story.
    He campaigned for the UK regaining powers on fishing, immigration and social policy during his leadership bid in 2005 and he is known to be a Eurosceptic, which is precisely why he was appointed Minister for Europe in the 1990s to try and convince the rebels to come onside.

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  5. newmania says:
    February 27, 2008 at 12:33 pm

    At least Brown resisted the headlong charge into the Euro while he was in office too!
    Rubbish. He grumbled whilst posing as ‘real’ Labour and an internal opposition and as soon as he was enthroned he actually assisted with the lies presiding over the removal of our promised referendum. Can you seriously not see this? He fits your paradigm perfectly.
    You are reading history backwards . In fact ever close union is enshrined in the original Rome Constitution which is exactly why we do not need another one to have a ?Constitution? . A transparent con .In this sense what we have was always inevitable. Its easy to say you should have realised the cost earlier but back then we were also talking about the vital principle of free trade including for us in Europe. There were perceived advantages too . This prize has receded as the world has grown and the cost in sovereignty has become a far larger issue. Such developments have allowed the Conservatives to unite the free trade and national principles and become a Euro Sceptic Party. There was never any love for foreign bureaucrats back door socialism waste and corruption. As for time tables, later usually means never.
    I accept there will be a tendency for all politicians to become more enamoured of enabling bureaucracies whilst in power and I accept there is not a true and pure position available for a national Party. This does not mean it is not right to honour the manifesto commitment in spirit which reflects the desires of the majority that we should not go further in and that it is time we stop and have good long look at pros and cons .The Labour Party dominated scrutiny committee were unimpressed and Milliband looked like a liar. I watched.
    Democracy does not work if the questions are always asked at a time and in a way so as to guarantee the elite get what they want( and then ask again if we get it wrong).
    You know this. Democracy does not work if Politicians move the goal posts when it suits them , you know this too. The Liberals should count the cost of their true position which is far far away from the country?s .. fact.
    Only some sort of visceral loathing for the Conservative Party which I do not really reciprocate ,would lead you to defend the indefensible .I appeal to your humanity and common decency to review this post which values Party Politics over the country , the working people in it and those who value its freedom to set its own course.
    Look who you are standing next to!

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  6. Bob says:
    February 27, 2008 at 1:53 pm

    ‘Letters from a Tory’ – you’re just not getting it, are you. Davis was campaigning from opposition.
    When he was in office, just like Thatcher when she was Prime Minister, he bowed down to Brussels. He forced people who were reluctant to vote for Maastricht because they knew what is was leading to, through the lobby with their hands up their backs. I don’t care if he pretends he is a eurosceptic NOW, when his views don’t matter one jot. That is precisely why I would support the Lib Dem amendment, to flush the likes of Cameron and Davis out of their bushes. They all do it. Please try to keep up!
    If you want a lesson in pure hypocrisy, just try to read that gibberish from newmania above. I don’t know whether he is trying to kid us, or just himself. Eurofederalism was always inevitable, we wanted a free market, therefore the old bat signed an agreement which transferred our powers to Brussels… and then they go and let us down by reading the bloody agreement!
    Bloody staggering.
    I’ve plenty of respect for euro-enthusiasts… and eurosceptics. They sincerely believe in what they say. But bloody idiots who think the Tories are eurosceptics, when with every move they made in their 18 years in office was designed to convert us from a common market to a united states of europe, for them, I just despair.

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  7. newmania says:
    February 27, 2008 at 3:06 pm

    You are wilfully misunderstanding me and ignoring that which will not suit your mindlessly partisan raving. There are shades of grey involved of course but I think you are up to understanding subtle distinctions over time . Yes the leaders of both Parties are more EU friendly than the rank and file . The rank and file of the Conservative Party now is solidly Euro sceptic and this cannot be ignored as we have seen. The Labour Party is predominantly pro Europe and left wing opposition weak. The Conservative Party member was not anti Euro when Mrs. T was about ordinary Conservatives like me would have nothing to do with irresponsible politicking with our jobs and future as we saw it then.
    She was ahead of us. By Major`s time serious disagreement was starting to erupt and you are most right about him , he was behind . The position now is that signing the Lisbon treaty would not be possible for a Conservative Leader without a promised referendum. On this issue then the Conservative Party reflect the Country .
    For a Labour Leader signing and lying is relatively easy although there is opposition. The Liberals are the most pro EU Party and they are against the mood of the Country , that is their problem as everyone except you , it appears knows quite well. This position they have fraudulently adopted has to be understood in terms of the true spectrum of opinion not some fantasy absolutist argument that has never and will never take place. I hope that?s clear
    You like to hark back because it muddies the waters and you like to imagine that quasi legal EU documents have some strength without the political acquiescence of the country . Actually they could be torn up tomorrow if we wanted them to be , this is a political not a legal argument I `m afraid you have bought the lie here .This is hard for you to understand because you are a bureaucrat unused to real life. The defence of the Labour activist that in the past the Conservative Party has been involved in the EU project is hardly new and it is becoming a pale and silly mantra . I have explained the trick of time involved and I do not believe you do not understand .
    If you aren`t up to it I `m afraid there is little more I can do for you for all my kind and charitable intentions . Come off it Bob you just have to know what a load of balls you are talking on this . There is more to life than slavishly following every Party line no matter how absurd you know .
    I begin to suspect that you have become a EU enthusiast like most on the left and your own motives are to hide not only Labour lies but the whole EU project beneath an appeal to Party loyalty .

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  8. Bob says:
    February 27, 2008 at 3:55 pm

    “The Conservative Party member (?) was not anti Euro when Mrs. T was about”
    My point, in a nutshell, thank you.
    “Conservatives like me would have nothing to do with irresponsible politicking with our jobs and future as we saw it then.
    Translated: But now we are in opposition it is OK to posture, and who gives a toss about jobs and futures if we can have a bit of ‘irresponsible politicing’.
    It isn’t a trick of time, you stupid boy. The Tories are Euro-enthusiasts in office, eurosceptic in opposition. Don’t go in to denial (you’ll get wet), Labour is no different you muppet. Unlike you, I’m not trying to make a narrow political statement about what is in the interests of Labour or the Tories.
    You just cannot bring yourself to answer the question: Why did Thatcher/Major (and David bloody Davis) sign up to massive transfers of sovereignty in the SEA and Maastricht? And what moral stance can the Conservative Party, of all Parties, have in suddenly trying to seek the moral high ground on referenda?
    Don’t give us a load of waffly guff about times changing or ‘tricks of history’. I am at least being consistent. I supported a referendum in ’75, I think we should have had one on the Single European Act, and on the Maastricht Treaty because they all ceded significant powers to Europe. I also think we should have one on the Lisbon Treaty, although it is a minor amendment in comparison with the SEA and Maastricht, and I would support the Lib Dem proposal too.
    You, however, are behaving like the typical Tory snake in the grass and trying to wriggle out of the mess you are in.
    Pathetic.

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  9. newmania says:
    February 27, 2008 at 5:15 pm

    ‘The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.’ …from the last European union`s propoganda Minister
    You carry on

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