You have the odious in front of the wrong female.

To blame the Tories for Labour failings is silly.

We will all see how Labour perform in opposition shortly.

To blame the Tories for Labour failings is silly.

Can you not read? I did say Labour's about failings this is not only on one hand undeniably true, but it is not an unreasonable explanation either.

But Labour cannot be blamed for the paucity of the Tory opposition for 12 years, which has been truly, truly pathetic.

I don't know whether you are just a young person, but most people over the age of about 25 years of age can remember Labour in opposition, and they were certainly more effective than the excuse of an opposition we have had for the last dozen years.

Perhaps your comments just typify it... by saying boo... Labour's no good, you think it is being an opposition. well, it is, but not a very credible one.

I do say you are silly.

I can read.

The only pathetic thing in the last 12 years is the Labour party and how it has manager to bankrupt this country.

I am over 25

I do say `boo Labours no good` Got a ring to it that has. Ta Bob.

Well... I don't think I can compete with that quite stunning wit and repartee. You win. You're a very, very clever boy.

But Labour cannot be blamed for the paucity of the Tory opposition for 12 years, which has been truly, truly pathetic.

Yes it was unpopular to say that New Labour were hiding fiscal profligacy under an inflationary boom and that we ought to rein in .Such absurd doom mongering ended the career of Michael Howard and Oliver Letwin for example. Silly people .
On immigration it has something to do with housing but not ‘policy ‘, and no matter how many times you repeat that comforting myth it will get no truer . It is chiefly to do with the imagined community of England and the feeling that a home is being turned into a car park for any travelling folk who come by.
It was pathetic to see Jack Straw recently spotted sending dog whistles by banning the Burqa from his surgery hit easy targets and ignore the real problem .That is not the BNP but the wide constituency with sympathy for some of what they say . Immigration has been the number one concern for some years prior to the economic melt down your lovely masters have inflicted upon us , why no action ? Is it only bourgeois Liberals who get a voice ? I notice at the Crewe by election running a racist attack on blameless local Poles was an smoothly managed segue for the Party who have quintupled immigration and lost control of the borders .

Why Bob Knows Nothing About Working Class Voting - An essay

Since the Second World War about one third of the Tory vote has come from the working classes by the widest definition . In fact the working class Tory vote is the largest exception to class based voting in the UK . Middle class votes for Labour are less important but still a significant proportion its used to be about 25%. For example in 1983 4,000,000 wc voters supported the Conservative Party. In
1992 Labour trailed the Conservative Party in working class owner occupiers (even after having made up ground ).
These figures are out of date but illustrative of the true picture . The problem Labour has now is that its incursions in middle England but the working class vote it retained when it because New Labour has belatedly realised they were sold a pup and left .

Conservatives never lost England and the working class you imagine in black and white are shopping at Blue Water and voting Conservative in much the same numbers as always . In the phrase working class you forgot the first word and when you claim we owe each other endless duties of care it might been wiser not to destroy the “we” in question.

Bob a few points here.

Firstly Labour ran two key aspects to its 2005 general election campaign ( master minded by Mr Moral compass himself ).
1) The evil kitten drowning Tories would sack every nurse / doctor / teacher in the UK with their evil cuts ( really smaller spending increases ).
2) They are obsessed with immigration. ( It was impossible for any Conservative spokesperson to get any point across on TV through the wave of BBC questions on aren't you racist theme [ H/T to your election guys for organising that - very effective ]).

Its turns out that 1) was the right thing to have done, and now we watch Europe speed away from us with just the prospects of the savage cuts even the Lib Dems realise are necessary.

On 2) you shut down any debate on the subject, which is perhaps not suprising as we now learn that Labour was running a policy of mass immigration not for economic reasons but for political ones - as Andrew Neather is reported as confirming here.

Labour made the BNP by its style of politics. In your heart you must know this is true even if your position and party loyalty means you can say it.

Your post on the EU was very good by the way.There is a danger in the lefts endless assertion that we are marginalised in Europe though. I see an answer to that....
Who would the Labour Party ally with if we were to join the USA (with whom we have alot more in common )? A few nutty old Communists and thats about it.

Hello Bob!

Just a few little points:

Firstly a tiny English lesson, so you don't make too much of a tit of yourself with the syntax (you will always be a tit when it comes to the politics, Bob, but there is nothing we can do about that): "Myself and many other Labour members" is a horrible solecism. The word you are looking for is "I". It is the subject personal pronoun. "Myself" is the reflexive pronoun, as in "I made a tit of myself by writing an illiterate blog"

Next thing: "Labour has concentrated far too much...on wooing middle England voters" Brilliant stuff, Bob. I sincerely hope you concentrate on alienating these people comprehensively in the future to ensure that your party is never elected to govern again.

Point three: "If Labour was so totally unelectable..." Eh? Who said you were unelectable? Nadine did not. You twats just won three elections, didn't you? What the hell are you talking about?

Point four: "Cameron's Tories still struggle to consistently break through the 40% barrier in the opinion polls." Look at the UK Polling Report website, Bob. All of the last 20 opinion polls give the Tories 40% share of the vote or more, and all but one give Labour 30% or less (one gives them 31%). The poll of polls predicts a 14% Tory lead, translating to an 80 seat majority. Weep, Bob, weep.

Point five: "Why have people turned to the racist ideology of the BNP if there was a credible Conservative opposition worthy of the name?" Because the BNP is not Conservative, it is Labour with gratuitous racism added and is attractive to your core voters who realize how useless your government has been over the last 12 years. And Bob, you know this to be true, which is why you are so terrified of the BNP. They will never be any force in British politics, but they will eat away at your core vote and let some Tories win seats at Westminster, at your expense.

Last point, Bob: "So, Ms Dorrie [sic], before you throw around allegations about who has created a swing to the BNP... ask yourself why people don't trust YOU." You know and I know, and you know that I know and you know that I know that you know that the Tories are going to trample Labour into the dust and confine you to an enfeebled opposition for a generation or more after May next year. Twelve years of government failure will be punished by the people of this country and the next Labour prime minister has either not yet been born, or may never exist. Bob, you lot are toast.

Byeeee!

I think you're spot on with your comment about lack of Tory opposition. As witnessed on Question Time we now have a cross party coalition of LibLabCon and the BNP, Greens and UKIP representing the only real alternatives to more of the same from said coalition.

Of course, in the case of Sandwell it would have really helped if the Tories had actually given voters the opportunity to vote for them by being bothered to field candidates instead of some wards having the only anti-Labour choice of the BNP.

"Cameron's Tories still struggle to consistently break through the 40% barrier in the opinion polls"

Bob, can you be a bit more specific on this? I agree there have been dips into the high 30's, in June for example, but the figures show a much more consistent breasking of the barrier than failing to breaking the barrier don't they?

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/voting-intention

But Labour cannot be blamed for the paucity of the Tory opposition for 12 years, which has been truly, truly pathetic.

Whilst that may have been true for the first six-seven years, it spectacularly misses the point.

Governments shouldn't need effective opposition to force them to do the right thing.

Are we talking about the effective Labour opposition under M. Foot or N. Kinnock?

"total absence of any effective Conservative opposition during this period"

Are YOU forgetting that it was Tony Blair that shut down ANY debate on immigration by screaming racist/race card if the word immigrant/immigration was uttered by any Tory? (labour conference 2000)

He did for political reasons, except the people, white working class wanted a debate, they didn't want ghettos forming where they couldn't walk, so with the Tories neutered who else was there? The BNP

Well now we all have to deal with the BNP - by finding out why people vote for them and having a proper debate NOT one side screaming that the others are racists when they're not.

I get fed up with the 'Labour has bankrupted this country' line which gets parroted all the time. I know it's hard to imagine, but the recession would have been even worse if the government hadn't taken the action it had. And the crisis wasn't of their making - it was the collapse of the banking system in the US.

The Tories completely blew their reputation for economic competence when they were last in power. However, the Tory-supporting papers (and bloggers) are furiously peddling the idea that Labour always makes the economy bomb, and the Tories have to step in and fix it. It's a total myth! Thatcher would have bankrupted the country if she hadn't had the windfall of revenue from North Sea Oil.

I agree that the Tories, if they're going to start a blame game about the BNP, should look honestly at their own shortcomings as a viable alternative. But that's not Mad Nad's style.

Do you really believe what you've written? That it is the fault of the opposition if some people vote for a racist party. No working class people voting for the BNP then?

And in case you've not noticed, 'Cameron's Tories' have consistently broken the 40% barrier for the last 2 years - the same period that has seen the rise in the BNP - oh, and the same period that has seen Labour consistently fail to hit 30%. You can hardly blame the Conservative for failing to universally offer an alternative to all voters including socialists (and do remember that, at it heart, the BNP is actually a bit of a socialist party).

Cheers

Bob
You asked: "Why have people turned to the racist ideology of the BNP if there was a credible Conservative opposition worthy of the name? "

Possible answers include:
They are racists.
They live in political areas where the Conservatives are not viable candidates.
The BNP policies on immigration are correct and Labour and the Conservatives are wrong.

I don't know. You don't know. Since Labour are the Government and DO things - as to opposed to Oppositions - who oppose but do NOTHING - it seems fair to blame the Government.

If you blame the Opposition, presumably it's also the fault of the LibDems?

And if the Conservatives in Government cut spending, It will be the Labour Opposition's fault for being a weak Opposition?

Nicky "The Tories completely blew their reputation for economic competence when they were last in power. " - get a grip of your history. even Blair admitted that the Major Government handed over a golden legacy of economic excellence to his incoming mob. A fact that Gordon Brown refuses to acknowledge this mainly because he knows he blew the legacy within years and has pushed us further into the dodo that we would have been.

Bob: NOT one of your better posts. We shall see come the day when your cowardly, dithering 'leader' calls an election, just how badly Labour will do as the people ARE angry. They are angry at immigration, angry at the way welfare has been made a reward for voting Labour and the social engineering by Balls and Co that has ruined many of the great institutions of this country. Things last for hundreds of years because they WORK!

Dismantling the fabric of this country only leads to social unrest and eventually the very totalitarian society you lot claim to abhore. Your lot have pushed us closer to such a day with the way you scream against any dissent or opposing view and THAT is why many people will vote BNP.

Just some quick responses. newmania... I really can't wade through the soup of your writing style for long enough to grasp what I am sure are some very good points. Perhaps Mr Chas Pedant can give you some grammar advice.

dizzy - good point. Certainly those polls show a more consistent breakthrough.

Londonstatto, I wasn't even attempting to cover up what I perceived as Labour's failures... in fact I specifically referred to them.

Man in a shed and Alister, I think you are right that the 'immigration' debate has been clouded by fears of allegations of racism... but it hasn't been confined to Labour. When I reproduced an image from the Ministry of Truth on this site it was met with the same hysterical howls... from hundreds of Tories.

People like Jon Cruddas and frank Field, from different sides of the Labour spectrum, have openly spoken about issues around immigration. But... that doesn't mean that we should allow immigration debate that is blatantly racist to go unchallenged.

cute deflection bob but deflection is all it is. who's been in power? labour. who broke immigration? labour. who won't tell the difference between economic migrants and asylum seekers? labour. who's taken the decisions on housing? labour. who exacerbated the impact of recession by pulling the teeth of BoE oversight in the banking sector? labour. whose core vote has switched over to the BNP in places like burnley, bradford, barking and dagenham? labour's. who has created the BNP as it stands today with a policy vacuum for those who feel most overlooked in white, poor society? labour.

the electorate has you clocked squarely. you can't spin your way out of this one. and get the quote right: it's take the beam from your own eye before extracting the mote from mine. something you might learn from ...

John Taylor, you have clearly not understood. Perhaps that is my fault for not meeting Chas' English standards. And madasafish, you also make the same mistake. As for who broke immigration I don't even know what that is supposed to mean.

I am not blaming the Tories for the rise of the BNP, whatever the idiot Dale tells you. In fact, 'the take the mote from your own eye' reference, (sorry if it upsets you Jules, I ain't a Christian) together with what I wrote about Labour failing whole sections of the working class, accepts that the Labour Government have responsibility for it. But the BNP, and the National Front before them, gain prominence when there is a weak Labour Government and an ineffective Tory opposition. I accept, the opinion polls are currently showing improved ratings for the Tories, although this is not translated into votes in by-elections incidentally.

The gist of my point was that the political class as a whole has to accept responsibility for the appeal of the BNP. The Iraq war, the expenses fiasco, cash for honours... the whole stinking mess. If you don't get that then tough, we will have to agree to differ.

So now it's in the open ie Labour's hidden mass immigration policy per Andrew Neather - Labour wanted the UK to be more multicultural and opened the flood gates without telling the populace - utter deceit.
Many of us have suspected for years that Labour had a hidden immigration agenda and you and your co conspirators shouted down anyone who raised the issues as racist and still try to do.
This revelation will see the end of Labour and the increase in votes for the BNP - who's to blame Bob - the Torys?!!!!

No, Neil Sterrett neil, I would never accuse the Tories of encouraging immigration. (Well, perhaps that nice Mr. Enoch Powell, who as Minister for Health used to place adverts in the Caribbean islands urging migrant Labour to come to Britain).

In a way it has always puzzled me. A party that believes in free trade, and the free movement of capital, but doesn't believe in the free movement of labour.

Nice one Bob - no mention in your reply of Labour's part in all this which was the essence of my comment but you couldn't resist a swipe at the Torys!!!

Instead of you lot blaming each other, why not ask yourself in the round why all parties are failing to connect with some voters who are turning to other fringe parties. Maybe it's because you don't listen, and instead do what is electorally popular to keep your seats rather than actually do something that is unpopular but actually common sense politics...

I'd suggest both Tories and Labour take a long hard look in the mirror and ask themselves why they are failing, and get their house in order before blaming everyone else for the problems they have created........?

ah yes. when in trouble bob, spread the blame with lazy claptrap so less of the brown stuff sticks where it's due. nor am i a christian as you assume; in fact i'm an atheist. however i felt compelled to correct your erroneous biblical quote in the same way i felt compelled to point out your erroneous statements.

and yes, labour did break immigration. don't know what's so difficult about that one. it broke an already dysfunctional system by removing any remaining measures that enabled those officials and agencies - paid for by us - to manage who can come in, who's leaving and who shouldn't be here in the first place. trying to put humpty back together again does not absolve labour of blame.

the tories have no culpability in the rise of the BNP; opposition cannot by definition as it is out of government. the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of labour - remember, with power comes responsibility. and with failure in those responsibilities, comes consequence.

Oh Neil, don't worry, I have no problem commenting. If there was a policy to allow mass immigration in order to encourage multiculturalism it was patently stupid. So stupid it is almost too much to believe, but all the same, stupid.

Of course, the mass immigration which has arisen over the period of the Labour government has got nothing to do with some nonsense about multiculturalism, but has been down to our membership of the EU.

As I said in my original post, New Labour has genuflected in front of the rich... and you won't find business or employers organisations condemning immigration. They want it - it squeezes down wages.

The whole basis of Maastricht and the SEA (both agreed by the Tories - sorry to mention that) was to lead to a single market across Europe with the free movement of labour enshrined as part of that market. That was why I pointed out the discrepancies between Tory rhetoric and Tory actions.

Also remember the BNP under Nick Griffin have changed the way they want the public to perceive them buy using different vocabulary to sell themselves. By doing this they have gained more support and with it more money to carry on with Griffins plans. If the BNP hadn't changed tactics then they will most probably still be a very minor party with not much support and disgruntled voters of Labour going to the Tories thats if these voters were Labour in the first place.

You have got to grant it to the BNP, they have been very clever in changing how many people perceive them.

You still don't quite grasp it do you Jules. The Tories can't be blamed for being a ineffective opposition? Love a bloody duck. I won't spell it out for you. Fool.

Chris... someone who does get it. I'd suggest both Tories and Labour take a long hard look in the mirror and ask themselves why they are failing, and get their house in order before blaming everyone else for the problems they have created........?

Spot on. That's where I came in.

Bob
Read this and recant:

Labour wanted mass immigration to make UK more multicultural, says former adviser
Labour threw open Britain's borders to mass immigration to help socially engineer a "truly multicultural" country, a former Government adviser has revealed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

Bob, you said that the rise in BNP membership could be explained in part by the Tories being eak in opposition. Would you agree that an opposition party's weakness could be attributed to Tony Blair who regularly by-passed parliament and refused the chance of debate in the house? IE: Any 'weakness' in opposition was ensured by Tony Blair ignoring the traditions of Parliament.

madasafish, are you also blindasabat, thickasabrick or deafasapost? I don't have to recant anything, because I didn't say it. Try being brightasabloodybutton for a change

Brian, I didn't say that, I said the rise in their popularity. If I thought the reason the Tories have been such a piss-poor opposition was down to Tony Blair I would warmly thank the man. But I think the Tories themselves have greatly contributed without any help from anyone.

It's muddled thinking to simply describe the likes of the British National Party as "extreme right". The truth is that on issues like health, transport, housing, protectionism and globalisation, their economics are left of Labour, let alone the Conservatives. It's in areas like police power, military power, school discipline, law and order, race and nationalism that the BNP's real extremism - as authoritarians - is clear.

This mirrors France's National Front. In running some local governments, they reinstated certain welfare measures which their Socialist predecessors had abandoned. Like similar authoritarian parties that have sprung up around Europe, they have come to be seen in some quarters as champions of the underdog, as long as the underdog isn't Black, Arab, gay or Jewish !

With mainstream Social Democratic parties adopting - reluctantly or enthusiastically - the new economic libertarian orthodoxy (neo-liberalism), much of their old economic baggage has been pinched by National Socialism. It's becoming the only sort of socialism on offer. Election debates between mainstream parties are increasingly about managerial competence rather than any clash of vision and economic direction.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/extremeright

It's a pity you are so stupid and ignorant that you cannot see further than the end of your own nose. The BNP are socialists.

Yes, strange that the "stupid and ignorant" Baroness Warsi described the BNP as an "extreme right" party on Question Time.

When it comes to Authoritarianism I can only presume you are either too young or thick to remember the years under Thatcher. A nationally controlled police force, undercover hit squads of thugs terrorising Northern towns, using MI5 for illegal phonetaps of whole communities, closing the roads around whole counties, stopping legitimate protesters from leaving Kent, controlling the BBC to reverse film footage to show their thugs being attacked by the police instead of the other way round, preventing elected politicians voices being broadcast... that's authoritarianism.

So Bob you are saying that BNP voters are overwhelmingly socialist voters. Something denied by Labour supporters who claim the BNP as "right wing".

Incidentally since the Lab/Con/Lib party virtually unanimously supported bombing hospitals to help the racist & openly genocide gangsters & pimps NATO set up as the KLA & were equally enthusiastic about the equally genocidal former WW2 Naxis in Croatia & Bosnia I trust you accept that Griffin, like him or not, is very very much further from Nazism than your own leaders.

Sadly Neal, that isn't what I'm saying. I don't think the overwhelming number of voters would have much of a clue what 'socialist' means... let alone identify the BNP as being socialist. If only the working class had as clear a recognition of their own class interests as the ruling class there would be no problem.

I suppose I will have to labour to explain this point once again for you, but, here goes.

I happen to think that the Labour Government, and the Tory opposition are both responsible for neglecting the working class voters and lettiung in the BNP..

Talking to people and working with people who would vote BNP, many come from Tory backgrounds. The constituency were I live which is Daventry most people vote Tory and many working class Tory voters would vote for the BNP if given a chance. This is a failure more so for the Tories in not holding on to these even when they have a good chance of getting into power. The Tory vote going to the BNP might also explain why the Tories are not getting the opinion poll figures that they should be getting at this stage.

All I can see is that many Labour voters are going to abstain from voting and this could be why the Labour opinion poll figure is so low and the Tory figure not nearing 50%. Labour voters are just not going over to the Tories.

When it comes to Authoritarianism I can only presume you are either too young or thick to remember the years under Thatcher.
*******************************************

Bob's certainly not too young, but by the sound of it he's too thick to remember the years.

Or he's a fantasist.

One or t'other.

Alright then , if innovations like the subordinate clause defeat you I shall explain as I would to a cretin

Pay attention cretin ( I would say)

1 You are wrong working class voters vote Conservative in huge numbers generally forming around a third of the Conservative vote and more on a good day ( See any authoritative text book)
2 Around 35% of Labour votes give their second choice Party as the BNP ( See ‘The likes of us’ - A history of the white working-class - or and also ‘What’s Left’ where the same survey is quoted )
3 The cross over between Conservative and BNP voter is virtually non existent
This shows that your post was based on a simple ignorance of who is voting BNP . The Conservative Party appeals to many working class people , always has , just not the ones who vote for Nick Griffin .
So now you know whose fault it is , how about a little shame?

"If only the working class had as clear a recognition of their own class interests as the ruling class there would be no problem."

How very condescending & wrong. It presupposes that those "socialists" representing themselves as leaders of the working class are actually trustworthy, competent & willing to run society in the best interests of that class. The evidence is that they usually asren't the first, often aren't the 2nd & that the free market, because it works more efficiently than even competent command socialism, is in the best interests of everybody.

All I can add is my practical experience campaigning at the grass roots level and tackling the BNP. Yes, they are a particular problem in what can be generalised as 'white, working-class areas.' These would typically be seen as Labour voting areas and it is certainly the case that a portion of the BNP vote does come from Labour. Sadly, the working-class don't vote as a bloc for Labour and Thatcher was sustained in power by a working-class Tory vote. Some of these have also gone to the BNP. There is also the minority of free-range nutters who will vote for any party that promises to chuck out those of a different racial origin - they will vote BNP anyway because they have no other choice. If there is no party that proposes to exile migrants to Rockall, then this lot won't vote.

In 2005, Michael Howard deliberately tacked to the right on immigration with his daft proposal to move asylum seekers to an undefined island somewhere in the world pending decisions on their cases - he was trying to follow the Australian model and harvest the working-class Tory vote, but Labour quite rightly called him on it.

My direct experience is that where you have one dominant party, there is a need for a valid opposition. If there is no outlet for that protest vote, then it provides an opportunity for the BNP to step in and take it on board. If Labour or the Conservatives or the Lib Dems fail to stand up to each other in their dominant seats, particularly in those areas vulnerable to BNP activity, then they each share some blame for allowing the fascists the room to manoeuvre. In one particular box in a ward where I stood a couple of years ago, the BNP had been doing rather well. The local team put a bit of effort into dealing with some advice cases and putting the party around a little. Just demonstrating a presence hammered the BNP vote down.

That, however, takes time, effort and money - something that parties obviously prefer to devote to seats where they have a chance of winning. The risk of that is that you allow the extremist parties to pick up on the 'anti' vote.

And finally - nobody with an ounce of independent political science analysis around them really identifies the BNP as anything other than far right. They themselves are fiercely critical of anything to the left, classing even moderate Tories or Lib Dems as outriders of the far left and 'Reds.' The Tories don't like the 'far-right' shorthand, because it damages their own 'right wing' image raises memories of the 'nasty' party, a stain that Cameron has worked hard to conceal.

Whimpering about it doesn't help the matter, nor does fighting amongst ourselves to shift the blame.

It isn't racist just to discuss immigration or to have firm policies on who we let into the country. It is clearly an issue of concern to many people in this country and we need to push our policies on the matter and what we have done to fix the situation.