I suggest you have a look at the Hamas Charter.
Then go and have a look in the mirror.

The bottom line Bob is that Iain's video details (and is proof of) evil terrorist intent, yours details (and is proof of) the tragedy of war.

All decent people are angered & appalled by both but know which came first....

Even the IRA would not have used their own as expendable adverts for the bleeding heart Liberal world .There can be no peace with Hamas.
As many people have been killed in the Congo in the period . Who cares ? No-one .

It's just a value judgement, Liam. One person's 'evil intent' is another person's 'tragedy of war'. Going back to the 'who started it' mentality is the politics of the playground... and both sides play that game. Who on earth do you think created and fed Hamas? They don't exist in a vacuum... surely you don't go for the 'born evil' nonsense, or the 'good people led by monsters' garbage.

Newmania, I don't know. Did you ask Iain Dale that question? I didn't see it. I'm not quite sure what you mean by Congo though. The Republic of the Congo has been relatively peaceful, so I can only assume you mean the ill-named Democratic Republic of Congo.

Of course, the filthy money-hungry hands of our US cousins have been heavily involved in the sad history of that particular country. Having had a hand the assassination of the democratically elected Lumumba and heavily backed (the unsurprisingly non-elected) military butcher Mobutu, they drop the whole thing like a hot potato when the cold war ends and it is deemed no longer strategically useful.

And then they call it civil war, as if these native types just can't do it on their own.

Bob, I think it actually is worth reading the Hamas Charter as suggested here. You will then be able to make a value judgement: is a racist organisation that believes in the Protocols of Zion and is quite open in admitting it will never make peace with the Israels some kind of grey area?

Marcus, perhaps you will point me to the passage where I have defended Hamas. I happen to believe they are a product of the history of that country. If Israel (which is also a product of its history) doesn't have a racist 'Charter' for anyone to point at, does that excuse its murder of schoolchildren or massacres like those of Sabra and Chatila.

If you think it does... then get out kardinalbirkutzki's mirror and take a long hard look.

I genuinely don't get your stand on this Bob - it's one of those things I'd like to discuss properly over a beer because trading blog comments doesn't cut it.

Look - collectively the IDF can be vicious cold-hearted bastards and there's little doubt that they regularly step well-beyond the bounds of what's absolutely necessary militarily. Only unthinking idiots would deny that & I back you 100% in criticising those people. But despite this surely you don't actually believe that the IDF as an organisation is intentionally targeting schools and civilians just for the heck of it?

The Israeli's walked away from Gaza 3 years ago - tried the solution so many (particularly on the left) urged on them for many years - 'leave the Palestinians in peace and they'll leave you'. But the rockets kept coming every single day and still Israel did nothing. Eventually they tried a blockade and then a ceasefire - none of this permanently stopped the rockets. You're right when you talk about the danger of offering glib solutions on a blog but in all seriousness what else can Israel do?

As others have urged you go & read the Hamas charter - they have a stated aim of 'driving Israel into the sea'. This isn't Fatah or the PLO - organisation prepared to live with Israeli neighbours but squabbling about where the fence is.

I actually agree with the premise of one of your earlier posts - this Israeli action makes a solution harder and I'm with the many people urging Israel to realise they're on a 1-step forward 2-back path but I also recognise that until I can offer them something else if it was my family I'd be doing the exact same. They need to engage with Fatah & the PA, stop the West Bank settlements etc. and they need to know that the world is angered that they don't. When they see liberal / left opinion siding with people who literally call for the destruction of their country is it any wonder they begin to disdain world opinion...

Liam, whilst you can't understand my position, I'm afraid I struggle with yours. I don't think there is anything at all, not one single thing, which persuades me the IDF didn't deliberately do what they did in bombing that school. Their Deputy Defence Minister last year was not using words casually when he threatened Gaza with 'a holocaust' if the rockets did not cease.

My position can broadly be summed up by this:

The current situation in Gaza brings out the partisan in almost everyone.

For some Hamas are a revolutionary organisation. The Che Guevara’s of the desert, armed to the teeth to defend their homeland against overwhelming odds, defying imperialism and capitalism, and prepared to fight to the death for their cause.

For others they are a bunch of armed thugs, cowardly hiding behind a cowed civilian population, firing lethal rockets at defenceless peace loving civilians whatever the cost in bloodshed to the people they purport to represent.

The reality, I suspect, is that neither of these two cartoon portraits are true vaguely correct. Hamas is a political movement deeply ingrained in the lives of the people of Gaza. Its support is widespread in Gaza and the West Bank (Hamas won a clear majority of seats in the 2006 Palestinian elections) and they won a share of the votes that George W. Bush nor Tony Blair could claim in their last elections. As resistance movements have shown throughout the years, it is not possible to sustain an effective guerrilla organisation in a vacuum. Mao’s dictum about the guerrilla needing to move amongst the people as a fish swims in the sea. They have the support of the population because they are seen as defenders against an aggressor.

That isn’t to justify firing rockets at civilian communities, but it does say that we need to understand the context in which Hamas are able to operate. You either have to believe that the people of Gaza have a collective attack of lunacy combined with a strong streak towards murder and suicide, or that they have serious legitimate grievances which have not been addressed through legitimate avenues. They may not agree with everything Hamas stands for, nor for its acts of terror, but they do see it as an organisation articulating their feelings, even if in doing so they act in a brutal and murderous manner.

The Israeli bomber releasing his rockets into heavily occupied civilian areas has to ‘dehumanise’ himself and think in terms of ‘combatting terrorism’ to distance himself from his act of murder, a Hamas supporter in Gaza City, whose family have lost loved ones to Israeli shell fire will pledge their support to those standing up against the aggressor.

The latest wave of attacks on the Palestinians will not stop the rockets, and I’m sure the Israeli defence people know that deep down. They will spark further acts of murder, suicide and car bombing, in Israel as well as much wider in the worlds, where people far removed from the conflict and with little or no knowledge of the issues will pay the price in blood.

The words here are important Bob:

"I don't think there is anything at all, not one single thing, which persuades me the IDF didn't deliberately do what they did in bombing that school"

That's not what I asked - I asked if you genuinely believe that they target children even when there's no munitions present? If your answer to that is yes then we've reached an impasse I'm afraid. If it's no then that morality has to be contrasted with Hamas who deliberately place munitions in civilian areas. When that contrast is drawn I can't see how it's possible to condemn Israel over Hamas.

"You either have to believe that the people of Gaza have a collective attack of lunacy combined with a strong streak towards murder and suicide, or that they have serious legitimate grievances which have not been addressed through legitimate avenues"

Those aren't exclusive Bob - they do have legitimate grievances but they've also been raised to believe that all those grievances are the fault of the Jews (you've seen the videos) as so that 'lunacy' is there in terms of who they lend political support to.

I'd be genuinely interested in your thoughts re: my point on Israel's options though and the fact that they did withdraw and attempt to leave the residents of Gaza in peace...?

I will not knock Hamas for fighting on. if that makes me a Racist so be it.

Liam, Israel 'withdrew' following pressure by the US on Sharon. It was bitterly opposed by Netanyahu, who resigned from the Government in protest. The same Netanyahu who is currently the Leader of the opposition as they prepare for an election. ask yourself whether the timing of the current conflict has got more to do with that than the rockets.

Despite withdrawal the Israelis controlled the airspace, waters and border around Gaza and effectively cut it off from the rest of the world when Hamas won the election.

The answer to your first question is yes, I do believe they have targeted civilians on purpose, including the school. so I suppose we are unlikely to agree.

You think Hamas are genocidal bastards, and I'm inclined to agree. I just happen to think they have some justification for being bastards. I also believe the Israeli Government are also genocidal bastards.

For some Hamas are a revolutionary organisation. The Che Guevara’s of the desert,

To Nuts

As Orwell noted , people who have ceased to love their own country will transfer that affection to almost anyone . He was thinking of Russia but the forces that hate the Jews seem to fulfil the same role today.“The current situation in Gaza brings out the partisan in almost everyone.”, you say . Wrong . Conservatives care little for abroad in general it is the lefts loathing Israel that is the fact which goes back , I daresay , to the USSR`s backing for the PLO (once allies of Hitler ).
The grievances that the Palestinian People arguably have were addressed and 90% of what they now say they want was offered to Arafat who walked out on the deal. They were elected as a protest corruption of the PLO . This is not the Middle England , the only real democracy is in Isarael. They went from there supported with Tehran money to pursue their objective which was war , they did this by lobbing bombs onto Jewish children until Isarael had no choice . How you would like our government to act if your kids were getting unprovoked rocket attacks chucked at them Bob ?Hamas sited their armoury beneath schools so as to give the Pipers of the world the chance to parade their selective consciences . They did not have to .
Numbers
If the ongoing slaughter in the Congo is Americas fault in your odd world what about the cold .24000 pensioners are expected to die unnecessarily this Winter , 12 an hour and an increase of 7% in successive years. I don’t se anyone having a woolly jumper march .In Sudan they got through a Lebanon every ten days I do not recall a proportionate response shall we say from the left constituency who only ever get upset when its Israel . I could go on , this hand wringing for political effect is nauseating .

Do the Palestinians have a grievance ? Palestine was owned by absentee Landlords under the \Ottoman Empire , the Jews bought it with money because ( oddly enough they did not trust the rest of the world to look after them ). Their Labour practices make it impossible fior the Palestinians to stay but their Labour practices were not different from he rest of the tribal area and certainly no different to the Palestinians . At the beginning of the last century 700,000 people loved in the area so while you tell me the Jew are responsible for all this cruelty can you tell me Palestinians have migrated into the area largely after the state of Israel was a fact and a rich fact. Now Israel confronts an enemy whose objective is to eliminate them from the world like vermin.

The use of the term concentration camp to describe unavoidable security precautions is a disgrace , there is no hope of peace until Hamas are removed and that is the true aim whatever they say. Moderate powers and Egypt will not be drawn into a process including Hamas

Netanyahu resigned in protest because he said it would lead to more violence - if anything he's been vindicated.

And you're still being very particular about my question and avoiding a direct answer - do you believe they've targeted civilians on purpose when they have no suspicions of rockets in the vicinity?

I really couldn't be bothered to plough my way through newmania's key stage 2 drivel, so readers, make of it what you will.

Liam, let me make it absolutely clear, because I intended no obfuscation. I believe they have deliberately targeted civilians when they have no suspicion of military activity whatsoever.

From yesterday's trotskyite Daily Mail:
"This morning the UN accused the Israeli army of evacuating 110 Palestinians there - about half of which were children -then repeatedly shelled it 24 hours later, killing at least 30 of the civilians inside."

Then we're into 'blood libel' / 'protocols of zion' territory Bob - shame on you...

My problem is, Israel trying to rid of Hammas or the Palestine people. The Israelis have admitted there was not firing from the school. They fired at internatioal relief agencies. Why are they using white Phosphorous?
If it is OK to kill Hammas for being racist, and anti semitic can we bomb Nick Griffin, and the BNP.

Henley vote the BNP above Labour. Maybe we should fire rockets at Henley.

This post is a direct response to Iain Dale's "Hamas as they really are". My thought was 'Israel's actions speak louder than Hamas words'. So, I am grateful that Bob is once again providing a check and balance where it is much needed.

Unlike Liam Murray, I do understand Bob's stand. It is broadly similar to my own.

Both sides have publicly stated the desire to wipe the other off the face of the earth.

Liam Murray states: "Look - collectively the IDF can be vicious cold-hearted bastards and there's little doubt that they regularly step well-beyond the bounds of what's absolutely necessary militarily. Only unthinking idiots would deny that & I back you 100% in criticising those people. But despite this surely you don't actually believe that the IDF as an organisation is intentionally targeting schools and civilians just for the heck of it?".

There appears to be some mixed up thinking here. I think it is sound to remove the emotional "just for the heck of it". I don't believe the IDF has done it for fun. The IDF attacks upon the UN school and the so-called safe-house were not random nor accidental, it leaves only intentional targeting. Under the Geneva Convention they amount to war crimes.

Well, Liam, if opposing the bloody murder of schoolchildren means I have to be ashamed, I will be. If that's the case though you'll have to accept the responsibility for the Falangist butchers and the IDF. Let's all take our share of shame ... and see if that takes us one centimetre forward.

The 'shame on you' line was cheap, uncalled for and written in anger - I'm sorry.

Don't worry Liam, I'm not easily offended. It shows you care.

Keep speaking the truth and eventually people listen.

Whenever anyone remotely criticises Zionist Israel all we ever hear is the "Holocaust Denial" pre-recorded message. The whole of Israel seems to be in Holocaust Denial today - Denial of Israel's Palestine Holocaust.

We are sleepwalking into a World War turning a blind eye to Zionist "Lebensraum" policy in Palestine. This has nothing to do with Hamas rockets which are a symptom not the disease of Israel's barbaric oppression of its neighbours. It is everything to do with ethnic cleansing.

Are we anti-semitic when every Christmas we repeat criticism of King Herod's policy to children of 2000 years ago? King Herod's policies are back, and we have no business endorsing the butchery in Palestine.

Oh dear, I see that some Jewish big-wigs are calling for a cease fire in Gaza. Whilst calling for both sides to get their act together, I was disappointed that the letter suggested that Hamas firing rockets is a war crime. And what about Israels war crimes? The so-called big-wigs were silent. If they cannot be honest why bother to pen the letter in the first place?