Bob

There is a genuine story at the heart of all of this. That is why the MPs and the media have been able to continue the narrative for so long.

When Cabinet ministers are using very careful, coded language, it is clear that something is wrong and they don't know how to handle it. Hutton today could and probably should have dismissed those who have asked for nomination papers - but he didn't. He trotted out tired lines about best policies and long term interests for the country.

The Labour Party of 5 years ago had a sureness of touch when it came to sensing the feel of a situation and responding accordingly. This has gone.

People are calling for change because they have cannot see Gordon or the current cabinet as delivering on what has been achieved in the past. I don't see major ideological conflicts - but I do see a lot of very frustrated people trying to find a way forward.

But Bob, with Brown there cannot be that change of direction you say we need. He is not just unattractive on Newsnight, he is locked into the failures of the last 12 years and not remembered for the good bits. He is a bungler (remember the 10p tax fiasco he created?). He now appears a clumsy failure, dead in the polls, wrecking eeverything he touches and unable to announce even a loft-lagging policy without getting it wrong. He is a loser.

We need to change the Leadership to lessen the depth of the chasm we are heading towards. I would leap at the opportunity of voting for a Johnson/ Cruddas ticket - or even better the other way round (did you read the focus group reaction to Cruddas yesterday?) with a clear change of direction, laying down a set of manifesto promises to be followed by a Spring election-

*A windfall tax of £8 billion to be given directly back to those on benefits and in fuel poverty this winter; a 3% cap on any more rises in energy bills
*A clear plan to get the low paid out of tax completely in 12 months by increasing rates at the top, and on the rich from overseas who use this country as a tax haven
* A referendum on son-of-Trident to see if the people of this country would prefer a better use for that £28 billion
* An apology for the illegality of Iraq and a promise to bring our people back from there and Afganistan within 6 months,walking rather than in body bags
*A full public enquiry into the Iraq invasion
*Support for, rather than attacks upon, the living standards of public sector workers (inclucing the police)
*Restoration of the basic rights of people at work through mature discussions with the trade unions
*Funding to deliver a freeze on Council Tax next Spring
*An end to phoney-green taxes on cars that our people drive
*Scrapping TV licences and funding the BBC from general taxation
*An end to tuition fees with debts canelled
*An end to prescription charges
*Grown up discussions with the SNP about a joint socialist programme for Scotland and the chance for people there to decide their own future in a referendum
*Frank discussions with the USA after November 4th about our future relationship with them designed to end the crookedness of the Bush/Blair era

It's a Harry Perkins moment. Time to try Socialism. Time for plain speaking and clear commitments, with ordinary Leaders saying plain commonsense things that resonate with our core vote. With this kind of change we would have a good chance. Without it we have none.

John

John, I agree with (most of) that (I think despite one or two eye catching policies the SNP are essentially a right-leaning nationalist party). In fact, what I was trying to say was that changing the Leader without changing direction, i.e. Miliband instead of Brown, was just changing the face, not the policies.

If we have Johnson/Cruddas and the same cautious conservatism accompanied by headline chasing, we will have a six week leadership election farce with no prospect of change emerging out of it, and I just can't see the point.

Bob, I've always found Salmond to be a radical internationalist with a domestic socialist programme (I think that's why he's popular) but that's by-the-by.

I agree we need deep-rooted change in policy and strategy, not just another vacuous grin at the top. With the correct leadership change there's a chance of that. Without it we are doomed to a decade or more of Toryism.
John

Simon said: "people are calling for change because ..." What people ? Where is this crowd of voters who are always telling the press, and you apparently what they want ? I'm people, and I've never told you anything of the sort. I worry about real stuff, and that does not cover a daily think about if he, or they, or them will, would, or could sort out this bloody mess. Cameron and that lot have no chance of fixing it, Gordon with help may fix it, the others in the Labour Cabinet have not a cat in hells chance of delivering, they need to shut up and do what they're told. Gordon needs to tell them all, and that includes the Unions, if they want a Tory Government then they can have one, and call a General Election. The man's had enough, and should take those whinging traitors down with him, at least his memoirs will be worth a few bob, those that settled for five minutes of fame and revenge telling Sky what they thought will have to go back living on a little less, and perhaps worry a little more about the price of gas.

John... a 'radical internationalist with a domestic socialist programe'... this the man who said last month... One of the reasons Scotland didn’t take to Lady Thatcher was because of that. It didn’t mind the economic side so much. But we didn’t like the social side at all."

So, that's a domestic socialist social programme then, and a somewhat less radical economic one.

I would like to see some real left wing ideas but politics is the art of the possible. The government does sometimes have to do populist measures. We just wouldn't get elected, if we did all left wing policies. I would like to see a republic. But I know it is unlikely someone could lead the party asking for a republic. It is the art of the possible.
There is no point changing the leader before a recession. :

Mike,
Brown has had 12 months to fix the price of gas (the only one of your worries you mention) and has come up with a 10-year plan to lag lofts for the over 70's while the energy rip-off continues full speed. Do me a favour. The first point in my proposed manifesto would have slightly more electoral appeal and might make some inroads into the 30,000 estimated to be heading for a cold-related death this winter.
John

John Edwards. Obviously not old Labour enough for you, but sufficiently attractive for the public to vote for the 'failures' of the last 12 years three times, and a reminder that in the poll James Purnell was equally highly rated, and I assume your wish list is fully costed and affordable because you've spent a lot of money, and for one, I'm not sure how, with the best will in the world, GB can lay down the law to privatised foreign companies.

I can't help but think that combined with the media fury over the non-election that's resulted in the most wicked coverage, the venemous personal attacks by the opposition, treacherous Ministers and MP's, and with friends like you moaning, undermining and scheming, it's hard to see how Labour can recover. In the meantime, just benefitting from the disarray and without offering the public anything on your list, the Tories ride high in the polls.

But not to worry, there are those who'll look forward to a good long spell in opposition, relishing years of angst dwelling on mistakes that were made in the past, rather than trying to put them right while in a position to do so in office. Unfortunately, it appears that loyalty, supporting each other and fighting our corner is the victim of old poisoned left/right politics.

And Mike, I'm an activist, and colleagues and people I talk to are angry at the way GB has been unfairly vilified, and you're right, threatening to call an election would show what cowards these people are.

I think the real story here is the sad decline of Nick Cohen; I always thought of him as one of the British left's most articulate supporters, even taking into account his deranged passion for selective education, but he seems to have embraced some very unsavoury causes....

Also, given that he heads an organisation designed to promote accurate and responsible journalism (at least in regard to Israel), his own is somewhat wayward; I remember him comparing the Handsworth riot of 2006 with it's 1981 predecessors, in order to make a broad point about race and segregation. He obviously didn't recognise that the issues running up to the latter (the crushing hopelessness of a life on the dole, the adversarial stance of the police etc) went far deeper than a scrap between Black and Asian drugs gangs, which is pretty much what the last one ammounted to.

But why should he? He's been comfortably ensconced in his Islington pied-a-terre for a couple of decades.

Bob, Salmond added some clarity about the witch that you may have missed:-

But a defensive Mr Salmond told radio listeners: "I was commenting on why Scots, in particular, were so deeply resentful of Thatcher and I think here her social message, epitomised in the unfair poll tax and her comments of 'no such thing as society', cut against a very Scottish grain of social conscience.

"That doesn't mean that the nation liked her economic policies, just that we liked her lack of concern for social consequences even less."

John

John the student... spot on.

John E... Yes, he hastily added that when he found out his remarks had been printed in the interview. I find it difficult to reconcile his later explanation with his actual comment that Scotland didn't mind the economic side.

In fairness, in their first year, the SNP policies at least appear to be leftward, which is hardly surprising given the Scots natural loathing of all things Tory... but I remain to be convinced that it is more than a veneer.

john edwards said: Mike, "Brown has had 12 months to fix the price of gas."
That remark was not intended to be taken literally, it was meant to suggest that the Labour MPs who would be out on their ears if they carried on baiting Gordon, would suddenly start worrying about more important things, like how they were going to manage with no job. Gas, I have no problem with gas daft lad, I took out the freeze your gas and electricity until 2010 and not your nether regions scheme. You it would appear did not ? If you did not then you should have, if you did then what are you blathering on about ?

Bob
I agree changing leaders is a messy and dangerous option but, in the present atmosphere of terminal drift and decline, it is attractive because it is a positive response to a grave situation. Gordon has had his chance and blown it; the question is 'how do we avert the disaster of a meltdown?'. Sticking with Gordon seems to be the most defeatist strategy of any available right now.