"Not New Labour, not Old Labour, just Labour" reads the strapline.

Not sure how well that holds up after this particular post Bob...?

Never truer words written. Hear, hear.

I agree totally, Bob, these people will always want something in return for bailing us out. I suppose the Unions do to but at least they represent millions of workers not a few share holders.

Surely the good work of Mr. PFI, Clement Atlee should continue?

Increasing the Minimum wage is certainly a call to arms in the downtrodden communities but the parity scales is something that is worth putting into the agenda along with regional parities.

Have you considered the thought that some richer elements are quite favourable towards a more democratic socialist left than they dare admit, and therefore would prefer to donate anonymously? You know how devious the 'old boy network' is, even if Iain Dale disregards such a notion.

The Trade Unions invented Labour? Did they?
Prove it.

Gary

Absolutely 150% spot on. Interesting how Dale & his chums get all sweaty in their efforts to deflect attention from their bum-caning, toe-sucking, perjurious comrades, ain't it?

Cassilis... it depends what you regard as 'Old Labour'. I certainly don't want to go back to the days where MPs were elected for life, where the Leader was only elected by MPs, where trade union barons were unaccountable to their members. I welcome many of the progressive changes over the last couple of decades, but that doesn't mean I'm new Labour either.

Gary, the TUC of 1899 passed a resolution calling for the TUC to convene a conference of working class organisations with the aim of setting up a body to secure working class representation in Parliament (we could do worse than go back and visit that bloody principle too).

Oh dear. A rather desperate attempt to deflect attention away from the ailing Labour government and their complete incompetence.

I think you will find that Tony Blair has privatised more public services than any other Prime Minister in the history of this country. And if you really think trade unions are so wonderful, maybe you should pop over the channel to France and witness the destruction and chaos that the trade unions have recently reigned on the country.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7093373.stm

I'm popping over to France in a couple of weeks and I hope the unions are still giving them a kicking when I get there. How you manage to turn my criticisms of New Labour into an attempt to deflect attention away from the ailing Labour government seems particularly stupid even for you.

Dear Letters From A Tory

Far be it from me to fight Bob Piper's battles for him, because from what I have seen he is more than capable of fighting them for himself. However, in case you did not read Bob's opening line I will repeat it for you here:One things seems quite clear to me about this whole fiasco of donations to the Labour Party...". Surely, this is drawing attention to rather than an "attempt to deflect attention away" wouldn't you say?

We have a rich history of trade unionism in this country, from which the Labour Party was born, so I don't think we will learn anything from the French. Let us hope that the frogs don't hop over here again like they did in 1066 and all that...

Yours unsincerely

JHL.

Well argued comrade Bob. The ILP had a key role in the formation of the Labour Party also. Their members were also active within the Trade Union Movement seeking to bring about this Labour Alliance. It is looking as if we will have to go back to the drawing board.

Well said Bob.

It seems to me that the Labour Party could do with revisiting some of those first principles. The conference of working class organisations you mention brought together the Independent Labour Party, Trade Unions, Fabian Society and other Socialist Societies in 1900. The outcome was the formation of the Labour Representation Committee in 1900, and the Labour Party in 1906.

These groups then represented the people that Labour were not catered for by the Conservative or Liberal Parties. They did not rely on capitalism for funding, and nor should the modern day Labour Party.

By all means modernise where necessary and wise, but I think all involved could do with a dose of real values.

Couldn't agree more about the direction we should be moving in as a party, and the potentially dodgy implications of accepting donations from enormously wealthy individuals. Although not doing so would leave a big gap in the party coffers - perhaps we should start seriously considering the Power report's suggestion of voters being able to tick a box to donate 3 pounds a year to a party of their choice (interestingly, it would not have to go to the same party they voted for; giving even small parties an incentive to really engage locally.)

Bob, how you must long for the strikes and industrial action that frequently brings France to it's knees.

A higher minimum wage leads to higher costs of production and higher prices so that when workers get to spend their wages, they invariably choose cheaper foreign goods and so forcing themselves out of work in the long term!

I appreciate that this isn't necessarily the case in the Public Sector as they just raise taxes to pay for it!!

Is employment at record levels in the UK because it is so easy to sack workers that employers have more flexibility in scaling production up and down?

What's wrong with privatising public services if it improves the service received by taxpayers? Given that private schools are apparently so much better than state schools, why not encourage more private schools to be created? You wear your trade-unionist cap far too frequently, you are far more concerned about protecting the jobs of your brothers and sisters in the unions than you are about the services they provide to the working class.

The state should fund a free, good quality education for all, it doesn't mean that it can provide it!

Should food distribution be nationalised in your opinion?

PS Agree with you on PFI, but only because it offers the taxpayer very poor value for money!

There you are folks... you can have snafu's grab it all for yourself society where you stand on your own two feet (and if you have to stand on someone else's to do it, so be it) and the weak go to the wall if you want it. I remember all that rot about the minimum wage was going to cause mass unemployment (as if the Tories ever gave a toss about mass unemployment) well, let them go back to the electorate and stand on that platform... or at least have the balls to apologise and say they were wrong.

Finally, snafu, if you want my opinion (not the Party's) I would nationalise the food distribution, and the land it is grown on.

"Time to kick the money lenders out of the temple, Gordon, and get back to where we once belonged." (Bob Piper)

I agree, time for you lot to get back on the opposition benches where you belong!

A piece of razor sharp wit there, Steven.

"I would nationalise the food distribution, and the land it is grown on." - You mean like in Communist Russia and Zimbabwe!?!

Guess what happens when you take away people's selfish ability to improve their own lives? They can't be bothered to work and the whole system eventually collapses unless people are forced to work. Real socialism in action!

Good post. Michael Davitt of Irish Land League fame writes in his 'Leaves from a Prison Diary' (1886) about the consideration being given at the time to the formation of a political party to represent the working class. He thought it possible that working men (no mention of women!) could shake the hands of lords and gentlemen in Parliament as MPs for the labouring classes, but warned that they would need to careful that their principles weren't shaken out of them while doing so...

"I would nationalise the food distribution, and the land it is grown on."

The mask slips! Is your model Ethiopia 1975 or Zimbabwe 2000?

And time to kick the EU moneylenders out of our regions.

A really interesting point by snafu... Guess what happens when you take away people's selfish ability to improve their own lives? They can't be bothered to work and the whole system eventually collapses unless people are forced to work.

I don't think I could put the argument for common ownership better myself, comrade, welcome to the struggle of the righteous. You see, industry (and giant farming corporations are indeed industry), does alienate workers from the means of production, it does lead to a sense of not belonging.

I can see no reason to use Third World countries as our model. The command economy in Ethiopia, for instance, came about because the regime of Haile Selassie had caused food shortages and drought which killed a quarter of a million people... is that your model for capitalism? Is Ian Smith's racist regime your ideal capitalist state?

Of course not and it would be absolute tommy rot for me to suggest it was... so why are you so stupid to suggest the reverse?

By the way... what mask has slipped?

James... we could start by making them democratically accountable, but if you are advocating the nationalisation of the international banking system, we might have to welcome you aboard too. This is getting to be a broad church.

Collectivism does not work because some people like to free-ride.

How about using the Czechoslovakia, Poland and East Germany as examples of why collectivism fail instead? The Czech Republic was an economic power-house in central Europe until it saw the future and became a communist experiment for nearly fifty years. What caused the economies of East and West Germany to diverge to such an extent that East Germany still lags behind?

Are the Trades Unions being selfish when they call for pay increases for their members that have to be paid for by everyone else or cost other people their jobs?

It didn't 'become a communist experiment' it was invaded by Germany, devestated by the war and became a soviet satellite state, and I am not surprised it didn't work.

Snafu, your problem is you are an inherently selfish person who ascribes the same motives to everyone. I believe people have the capacity to be community minded and care for their weaken brothers and sisters... and that's where we differ, but we'll just have to disagree because I'm not going to persuade you and you haven't got a chance of convincing me, so it will just become increasingly pointless.

The Trade Unions also operate in a capitalist environment, and they too would need to adapt, they just have far less distance to travel than most.

Bob, isn't it a fact that Clement Atlee probably invented PFI? He 'loaned' money from the USA to fund Socialism, sink pits, build steam and force workers into a NHS etc..

Snafu claims that PFI is a bad cost to the taxpayer. Of course it is if money is your only glory but try telling a parent that there is no money available to foot the bill for a new school during her child's 5 year stint!
PFI solves that problem.

Gordon is the greatest Chancellor of all time. Ask him if you don't believe me!
He went on to become PM. This is no fairy tale, he actually pulled it off.
How did he do the former and get away with it during a brand new phenomenon called Globalisation?

Simple (at least to this fellow genius).He has suppressed inflation by importing deflation from China. He has embraced PFI to fund three successful manifesto's (coming online soon)and he has kept within the EU spending golden rules of 3% GDP.

A miracle or fluke or clever politics?

Clever politics by a mile. Old Labour couldn't have done it, to put it mildly.Something would have had to give to sustain the old allegience to Socialism with a capital 'S'.

A new school, or no school. That is the question.

Bob, it was the suffragettes who invented the Labour Party, not the Trade Unions.

Gary

Gary, I can never quite tell if you are pulling my leg. There's a touch of the 'Henry Root' about your comments. Perhaps you'll point me to the moment the suffragettes 'invented' the Labour Party?

As for PFI... it really depends on whether my grandchildren are still going to be happy paying off the phenomenal amount outstanding to the private sector for 'picking up the risk' or whether they would have been happier if the Treasury had borrowed the money are far lower rates of interest and told the EU to take its golden rules, screw them up into a little ball, and shove it up its rear quarters.

Anyway... how are things in the People's Republic of Stoke?

Bob, I will get back to you on the suffragettes but I would point you to Dr. Richard Pankhurst (Emiline's husband) and his claim of leadership of the Labour Party which was held by Kier Hardie.

Paying PFI back for years? Bob, it was only last week that we finally paid off Clement Atlee's 'loan' from the USA.

Private money from the USA to pay for British Socialism that they did not want to pay for. Didn't they free Europe from the Nazi's with American boy's lives only to fund a Communist political party in Britain, whom had a great bear banging on its door for a cold war fight?
The Yanks hated Clement Atlee and his vision and Winston Churchill (now defeated) had to arrive in Washington with a begging bowl to fund Labour Socialism.

In Stoke we have the BNP crawling all over us. We have a Mayor and his Tory coalition who are closing all the schools and opening up Acadameies (breaking LP policy) and refusing to talk to MPs.
The Labour members are revolting(we certainly are, according to the Mayor and the regional office!).

This City is not big enough for the People's Republic and an elected Mayor. One is going, but which one? Around here they give away little red books and grid refrences to the regional office and a buyers guide for Plutonium 210. what's that all about?

Gary