Cruddas comes over as slippery and untrustworthy.
As for Swindon, well its there and other such marginals where the next election will be decided, not in the areas where Cruddas and his London trendies hang out.

Bob, you have made absolutely the right decision. As a councillor, you will also understand more than most how important it is for us to have a strong active local party around us to help Labour win elections and carry our our programme. For me, Jon Cruddas at least wants to listen to local councillors instead of ignoring us. I am thrilled he's standing.

I saw Cruddas on TV at lunchtime and thought he came over well, certainly he appears to have more conviction and less "new labour" froth than other hopefuls.

totally agree, especially on the Swindon point!

LOL - Cruddas as a London trendy, how funny! Have you seen the man in action? Trendy he aint.

I'm sceptical here Bob. According to the way it's written, Cruddas has it in the bag OR he should have it in the bag OR we should help him to bag it.

Over the last 6-7 years, Peter Hain stood up when everyone else ran.

This is only an observation and not my choice concerning anyone. Facts are facts though.

I've yet to see anyone talk Hilary Benn out of the race, on the contrary, he appears to be shining.

I doubt the winner is the one who 'gives it to me straight' and dies for the party.

The winner will be the one with the best PR and is more telegenic in the digital age.

I learned all of that in Sandwell Bob.

Gary

Gary

Gary, Be sceptical, it's a healthy attitude to adopt. However, the contest hasn't started yet so I fail to see how Jon has 'got it in the bag'.

As for Peter Hain, I'm struggling to think what it is you think he has 'stood up' for. Perhaps you could share these 'facts'. Personally I think Hilary Benn is probably the favourite (even I thought about supporting him, and not just so that I could dust down the old 'Benn for Deputy' badge from the attic.

I'm supporting Jon because he talks about restoring party democracy, involving the membership etc. not because my politics necssarily coincide with his. I don't mind people having differing views, but what I and many other party members want is the opportunity to debate them. When we don't do that democratically, people end up making policy on the hoof or through the media.

Right not being funny but Jon isn't going to win. Its only among people like us that read the internet that are excited by him. Most other people don't know who he is.

Adele.... the difference is, most people don't get to vote in this particular election either. Only Labour members and affiliates. Jon is at 7/1 at the bookies, with Benn, Hain and Johnson only just ahead.... and I'm not sure exactly what they are campaigning on.

You're wrong, Adele. The guy's come from nowhere in less than 6 months to second favourite. The reason Jon Cruddas will win is because people will keep under estimating him. At least the PM's taking him seriously - if he wasn't he wouldn't have made repeasted references to Cruddas at Saturday's national policy forum.

Are you sure about Cruddas, Bob? Not that I vote in the UK anymore but if I did I wouldn't touch him with a 3.048 metre bargepole. According to TheyWorkForYou he has voted:

* Moderately for introducing ID cards.
* Very strongly for introducing foundation hospitals.
* Quite strongly for Labour's anti-terrorism laws.
* Very strongly for the Iraq war.
* Very strongly against investigating the Iraq war.

It all seems to point to someone from the authoritarian and market-led wing of New Labour.

John,

I made exactly that point to Jon on Friday night. However, the problem in respect of all those issues was the lack of engagement with the Party members. Cruddas is offering to try to deliver that, I don't see the others, all from the centre or right of the Party anyway, offering the same thing. If the Party manifesto is arrived at following democratic debate within the Party and I don't get my way on ID cards, Tuition Fees etc. at least I will have been involved in the process, and if I lose I can slope off elsewhere if I want to, or join the ranks of the revolutionary abstensionists.

Are there TWO Jon Cruddas's?

I ask because I can't see how the: 'we want party Democracy returned' can possibly stand side by side with the voting pattern above.

There is no proof of the two to be found.

BUT I now see the fascination of Cruddas with the West Midlands (our heroes) MP champagne set.

Very informative. Well done Mr. Lilburne. 10/10

Gary

I guess that when many of those issues were debated Labour MPs were still following the voting advice that arrived via pager from the Dear Leader's office. Some MP's voting choices would possibly be quite different in the current Labour Party climate so maybe the benefit of the doubt applies this time.

PS Good cricket result. Maybe England can come home with a one day trophy now :-)

Are there two Gary Elsby's... that is the question?

Gary, it is highly unlikely that we will all get a candidate standing who agreees with everything we believe in. So, we have to make a choice. As I understood your earlier comment, you said Peter Hain had 'stood firm'. Well, he has shown this firmness by being...

Very strongly in favour of id cards
Very strongly in favour of foundation hospitals
Very strongly in favour of the Iraq war
Very strongly against an investigation of the Iraq war
Very striongly in favour of student top-up fees

John, I made it clear I wasn't supporting Cruddas on his voting record. As for the cricket, if the opening bowlers bowl like that to Gillespie and Hayden it will be over before the floodlights come on... (again).

I think you may have discovered a fine analogy between picking candidates and picking opening bowlers. They may not do exactly what you want but as long as it's not your team heading home in third place then the job has been done. For now.

Yes Bob, you may find that Peter Hain gave his undying Ministerial support for the above but it is also true that he went to great pains to say those things on LIVE TV viewed in their millions.

Now let's hear John Cruddas stand up and defend his 'previous' past and let's see him perform.

I'm not at all fooled by candidates who love my party more than I do. I only wish to know how come I loved it when they put it in chains.

As for John's previous political convictions above, I'll refer back to my previous post which suggests that anyone arriving in the vicinity of Junction 16, M6 with such thoughts are required to bring their own body bag.

Yes there are two Gary Elsby's. One that the WM region believe should be certified and the other that London believe should be the next PM.

Gary