Shame on you

Congratulations for doing the right thing.

Please criticise the tosser campaign again now, but in the right way.

Criticise it for patronising young people and ignoring that the fact that middle aged home owners who bought their house cheap years ago and have just remortgaged are in fact the most likely to get into the sorts of problem they highlight.

(These are sort of stereotypical potential Tory voters, hence why they possibly shied from calling them tossers.)

Oh well forgive and forget hey. Now, how about removing my name from your post as I am an anonymous blogger?

errr I can still get to it

It's still there Bob.

Well, it's not showing on mine and I have deleted it from my archive. If someone knows what else needs to be done, let me know... but stop posting the bloody link else you will just keep sending people there to be offended.

ftp on to the server and delete the file called theres_votes_in_them_thar_ethn.php

Bob, I suggest you have a word with your site administrator / webmaster.

Its still publicly viewable. Just because it isn't linked on your website any more, does not mean that it doesn't exist or that other websites do not link there.

dizzy... you've lost me there. What on earth does ftp on to the server mean in English?

remove PT's name and I'll tell you.

Now that is done, you must have uploaded the software this runs this site, or someone must have done it for you. FTP is the way you do it.

Type ftp://www.bobpiper.co.uk into the Internet Explorer address bar and you will probably get a login prompt. Assuming you know the detail login. You should see a ton of folder, and one of them is probably called "public_html" or "htdocs". Go in it, and then you need to follow the folders under this route 2006/12/ In there you should see a file called theres_votes_in_them_thar_ethn.php

delete it.

if you don't know the details then you will need to speak to whoever uploaded the site for you orginally.

Cheers Dizzy.

Get over it! Bob made a mistake, I guess he wishes he hadn't done it now, but what is done is done, he's said sorry. Come on, there are so many more important things to worry about. Lets just leave it there shall we?

By the way Bob, the image is still accessible.

Yes, I know... but I'm trying to find a way to delete it... unsuccesfully at the moment.

hmmmm. Well credit where credit is due, it is a big man who is willing to admit a possible error in judgement and do something about it. The fact that you don't listen to all and sundry to change your opinions is fair enough as long as there are some people to whom you give credence that's all one can ask. There are 'true' voices on both sides of the divide. I cannot speak for anyone else - it never occurred to me that MoT was racist - just inappropriate and the producer of something offensive. However 'beware.......' tut-tut, this is not a playground and we are not any of us bullies. Miss Mindbender

Bob ... echoing Morag above, why should people who 'malign' Unity 'be very wary indeed'? Is that some sort of threat?

That aside, I appreciate your having taken down the post.

I am glad the page is gone now! It is just that sort of juvenile performance that puts many people off the world of politics. It annoys me deeply when those in politics have to resort to taking digs at others by using 'clever' little adverts. Why can't people formulate a reasoned argument? People often lash out with such childish and offensive behaviour when they have had their own armour dented! David Cameron came up with a good idea (some may not like the approach - but I think it works and will connect with young people (I'm 22 and I've been through uni - so I know about debt)!) - raising the profile of an issue (debt) which I haven't seen Labour do much about... as such... the best response from a labour councillor was to attack Mr Cameron's attempts to reform his party and connect with the public.

Bel, Morag, because people who live in glass houses need to be careful not to throw too many stones. The MoT site can be very unforgiving to those who may make a mistake themselves one day. It's not about bullying, but I would imagine those that want to be self righteous had better well be righteous.

Chris, people get into debt for a variety of reasons, some of them even down to their own fault. My point was that calling those people tossers is hardly designed to help the situation... and frankly if Labour had used the same sort of language about people I would object to that too.

I've put the comments moderation on because quite a few members of the thick neck community seem to be landing here from their own rather unpleasant sites.

What the hell happend to freedom of speech?

I'm not a Labour voter, but I would always fight for someone's right to say what they like within reason. I do believe this was within reason.

Mind, Labour has contributed to this country of politically correct insanity, so I guess it was bound to bite them on the bum sooner or later.

B.P.,

please sstop biting the bait isn't worth it and it's a good day.

I'm rather disappointed you backed down on this one, Bob. A bit of offensive free-speech v political correctness controvesy is the blogsphere at its most entertaining. Maybe you saw what happened to those 400 coppers who laughed at a bad-taste email and found themselves on racial awareness retraining.

I'm utterly ambivalent about whether you'd kept it or removed it. As my comments regarding it demonstrated, my position isn't as alarmist as many others. I would just hope that this blog post doesn't devoled into a similar attempt at mud-slinging or maneouvering, although I fear it may already be heading that way.

If Kaz saw my last post and emailed me (I've been out allday and yet to check my inbox), then I'm happy to have the discussion I offered, provided it is okay with Bob and MoT. I don't want to create an issue over this given Bob has removed the post in question unless it has his backing. Hope that's okay with you. I would be happy to continue the discussions in private if Bob does not want it published and dragged on.

Well what a great 5 minutes of fame, at least people have heard of you now.

This is why I can never vote for the Labour Party - it is just "one rule for you and one rule for us " The two-faced elements to the Socialist party are breathtaking to behold - in its own way this is a micro-casm of the virus that attacks any labour member of a council or of Parliament!
Simple answer is to vote them out next time.

Now its gone hopefully we can move on from this, and I hope you continue posting on this otherwise good blog :)

Ellee, according to Andy Warhol we're all entitled to 15mins... so someone else is welcome to my other 10 minutes.

Justin... that's democracy. In some parts of the world you have to have a revolution or violent overthrow to get rid of your representatives. Here any little old lady or man with a stubby pencil can go to the polling booth and throw them out with two strokes. Cherish it!

Bob, I look forward to those next 10 mins ....

Can politicians in the UK please grow up? I thought we had the nursery in Edinburgh (ie Scottish Parliament). But obviously it's spread all over.

Bob, I know I'm not in your area, but you'd better to concentrate your energies on explaining Labour Party policies rather than poking fun at an irrelevant website by David Cameron.

If they can ban a tom and jerry cartoon from the 1950 (his mouse friday) then I would accept you to beware of the same type of offence that could be caused to the polical correct mafia that run today s policals

D.

Well done Bob, you have done too much good for equalities to allow yourself to be undone by a poor choice of association. Yes! the image was offensive but by removing it you have do the right thing.

Regards!

Derrick
Chief Exec
Race Equality Sandwell

I'm pleased it has been removed, although by now it is all over the internet. Once something is posted on the web, you can never get rid if it. That is why you have to think twice before you do a post or a link.

SO cameron offends you with some patronising website now you take up a racist jibe against black people who had nothing to do with it? I wonder what excuse a closet racist will come up with this time..will you say political correctness gone mad because thats a very popular one nowdays with closet racists?

Its funny how you try to push this to the side when its nothing when it just shows what you really are. ANd no one better say am overreacting because telling me am overacting is a criminal telling a victim that they are overreacting.

Ypu probably won't accept my comment but all i have to say is what you do in thed dark shall come to light , we now know that you are a racist snake . YOur political career will nosedive

David Potts - You wouldn't happen to be a Councillor on South Tyneside do you?

Shame my ass - you were voted in to say what you think, what you believe.

I praise you. Well done...

I dislike the present conservative party, but I think your comments are systematic of the hypocritical political correctness which New Labour manifests. In your hearts, you are all prejudiced against anybody not exactly like yourselves, but you disguise it by creating laws that ban outspoken comments. You have tripped over your self-imposed barriers. Now you had better apply Health & Safety laws robustly to prevent this occuring again. Lessons have been learned? You see, we all know the transparent key words used in the jargon you apply.

Enjoy the publicity Bob, i have made sure the local rags have a copy. Its sad i know, but you would have done the same thing. lmao

The Abstract,

It wasn't a racist jibe aimed at black people, to the best of my opinion. I have no reason whatsoever to think either Bob Piper or Unity are racist, or that they were being racist in posting what they did. My evaluation was that it was on point and captured visually how I have felt Cameron has treated me and people like me since coming to be the leader of the Conservatives.

Anyway, the post has been removed. I really wish people wouldn't make such a big deal over what is essentially nothing. I would also hope that the partisan pseudo-proselytizing and politiking would end. Its far too immature.

I'm a happy ex-pat but I check up on the old country now and again. That "Sort-of-Thingy" website interested me for all of point-zero-zero-three seconds. Please reinstate your own version, so I can compare.

Derrick: "a poor choice of association"?

Really, Derrick?

Two things - first, there are sufficent links on Bob's site to my blog for you to have the courtesy to address any comments you might have about me directly to me.

Second, perhaps you'd like to enlighten everyone as to exactly what you've been doing to combat real racist problems, like the BNP's recent electoral successes in Sandwell, while I was digging through the cesspit that is Stormfront to uncover exactly what one Sandwell BNP councillor has had to say on the subject of race and a whole shitload of other things besides.

After all, its only been posted online for, what, six months? And it's only the second most read article on my whole blog.

http://www.ministryoftruth.org.uk/2006/05/30/the-name%e2%80%99s-freedom-%e2%80%93-steve-freedom/

If that doesn't take your fancy, try this one, the most read article on my blog, largely from having been, for around two weeks, one of only 5-10 sites covering this story (none of which were the BBC or another major newspaper, except for a single paragraph in the Times News in Brief.

THe one just happens to be about alleged (ex)BNP members caught with a record haul of explosives.

http://www.ministryoftruth.org.uk/2006/10/06/conspiracy-of-silence/

And then there's the third most read article on my blog, which is about a certain national newspaper making false allegations about Muslim involvement in vandalism of a property in Windsor.

http://www.ministryoftruth.org.uk/2006/10/20/so-sang-the-blithe-reporter-man/

Perhaps now you might understand precisely why Bob made the comment "I know he doesn't have a racist bone in his body... and for those who have tried to malign him... be very wary indeed."

And, especially after reading the collective wit and wisdom of Cap'n Freedom, you might also like to revise you estimation of what and isn't offensive.

PS My five-year-old son spilt paint on the dog yesterday. Any idea how to remove day-glo pink from a poodle?

Bob, its great that you have taken it down. It's sad that you didn't take my word for it and those of the other people that complained. You kept suggesting that it was just Tories that were complaining but I did emphasise that my comment was not politically motivated. I also suggested that you ask a couple of black people but you only seemed to react when certain people complained.

Like I said on my previous comments, if someone complains, don't dismiss it off hand, find out what the issues are.

Bob, just as you are sure that Unity doesn't have a racist bone in his body I'm also sure he doesn't and I am just as sure you don't either. Ignore the petty fascists and just be happy that you, Unity and plenty of others can appreciate the irony of their comments. I was going remark about pots and kettles but I'm sure it wouldn't help matters so I won't. I will, however, be celebrating the passing of old General Pina Colada down in Chile and hope that his biggest fan in Britain will be following soon after.

Bob, as a Black British voter, I can say I was not offended, because I know that you intended no offence to me or any other Black person. It is amusing though to see the Tories jumping to the defence of us 'ethnics'.

What possessed you to post such a moronic caricature in the first place?

Can I have my expenses money back?

Bob Piper 9.38pm..'Here any little old lady or man with a stubby pencil can go to the polling booth and throw them out with two strokes. Cherish it!'
Or get their friendly Labour canvasser to fill in their form for them!

>>> It's sad that you didn't take my word for it and those of the other people that complained.

Well, next time, maybe you'd like to try articulating your complaint and then this could be discussed in their proper context.

Leaving aside the faux outrage of some, what been particular interesting about the comments of some of those who've complained is their unwillingness, or perhaps inability, to articulate the nature of their complaint.

They're happy to say that think the image is offensive, but not say why and what it is, precisely, that offends them.

What, exactly, am I supposed to take your word for? That's you've carefully considered the image and arrived at an intelligent set of conclusions that you're capable of articulating, or just that had a Pavlovian reaction to an image that kicks against an 'official' narrative that you've unthinkingly internalised and which considers certain images to be offensive no what how they're used or in what context they appear?

If its the former then we have a basis for debate, and perhaps a better understanding of the some the complexities that arise out of questions of race, ethnicity and identity.

If it's the latter, then unless you're prepared to ask yourself searching questions about why you reacted in a particular way to that image, then we almost certainly have nothing to discuss, because you have nothing particularly to contribute to such a debate.

I'm not at liberty to say whether I fell about laughing Bob, but you did stop me in my tracks just prior to it.

You know as well as I do that our enemies love this sort of stuff and are desperate to tag us with it.

I don't have to ask or even question you whether you or your friend has a racist bone in your body, because I just know you haven't.

The clowns on the other side just don't get it though.

You're a brave man Bob and certainly have b******s.

Do you know Sion? Perhaps you should consider a double act: Simon and Piper!! You'd pack the houses out Bob. Is it in the water?

Gary

It's was a very childish stunt Bob but it got you your 5 minutes but I also think it incredibly immature of certain sections of the community to find offence in what is basically a bit of harmless ribbing, nobody was harmed or mortally wounded, which is a shame as I think we both have similar feeling towards Tosser Cameron

Tell me something Bob and everyone else here, who was offended by Lenny Henry's portrail of a white man in the film True Identity. I certainly wasn't "offended" then and actually found it quite funny in places. Put it on TV today though and I would "claim offence" all thanks to the race relations industry

Whilst i applaud you taking down the minstrel pics and comments, i have to voice my disappointment that you do not recognise the image or the comments assigned to the image as being racist. If you don't think you're wrong, then why take it down? At least have the courage to either admit you're wrong or answer the case before the CRE if you still think you're right.

Well said, Ben. Just think of all those Bleeding Heart Tories attempting to take the moral high ground as they slot in another Jim Davidson video!
Anyone who knows the Councillor is aware of his abomination of racism and how he has fought it and any other form of discrimination all his adult life. But there again, you can think what you like. As if he'd give a tuppenny toss....ooops, sorry DC.

"in fairness to the Labour Party they have not put any pressure on me at all"

So your pals are happy for you to post racist slurs on your website then, are you?

Thanks for reinforcing the message that the Tories have changed and Labour are the same old nasty bunch that they always were. Beats the "demon eyes" poster hands down... Did Steve Hilton design it for you!?

KC - I don't consider the image was racist, nor had the slightest racist intent. I have tried to explain that it was supposed to be a micky-take of a Tory site which referred to some people as "Tossers", presumably as an attempt to 'speak young people's language'. The creator of this image was satirising that approach by implying that was how Cameron would talk to young black people, in the language they perceive black people to use. Hence the Ali G. reference. I think I weas wrong to put it on the site, not because it was racist, but because some people perceived it as racist and it caused them an offence which was never intended.

James, as we have not had any conversations I am in no position to know what they think. I'm glad you think my criticism of the Tories calling people Tossers has got home to you. I can't imagine Baroness Hardnose calling people tossers, so I suppose you are correct... you have definitely changed.

As for the Hilton person you refer to I have no idea who you are talking about, but if you concentrate REALLY hard and improve your reading skills a tad, you will know who designed it.

As a matter of interest, and as a neutral in this one, why would you remove the spoof because it risked offending "black people", but not mind if it offended conservatives? I should say that I am neither. Is it the case that offending people is perfectly fine in principle, but that there are some that should be protected from offence?

Would you have removed it if only black conservatives were offended?

Although i understand the opinions made by both sides of this argument, I feel that i may have to side with Bob Piper on this one.
Although we do have differing political opinions, i do not think that he was deliberately promoting racism...and after all, is it really fair to limit one's expression on a personal site? After all, freedom of the media must surely be upheld in circumstances such as this.

Endie, perhaps offend isn't the right word, although satire does by its nature tend to bite your bum a bit, but if the image was taking the 'p' out of conservatives because of their 'tossers' site, and their leader was being lampooned, I could understand them not being too pleased about it. If black conservatives thought it was racially offensive, as opposed to politically offensive, I think I am obliged to reconsider it in that light.

Spinless git. It's people like you, bowing down to a minority call to take your picture of Cameron down that is turning this country into a faceless, cultural vaccuum, with anyone frightened to even speak for fear of offending someone.

Can you please in that case remove all the white pages from your site because as a white person I find them offensive. Could you also please arrange for the Italian government to apologise for enslaving my family 2000 years ago. It's an outrage.

Thanks for the quick and pretty up-front response, Bob, but I'm still kinda keen to know why you think it's worse to offend someone on that one ground than another? Why is it worse to offend someone through comments about their race than comments about their political beliefs? Surely the offence is the issue, not the colour (or creed, or sexuality, or political alignment etc) of the target?

It surely can't be based on whether the offended party chose their status? That suggests that, since black people, for instance, are "stuck with it", that they must be protected from offence that a conservative is "big enough" to take. I imagine that this would not go down well with those being sheltered!

Is it the case that we're only allowed to offend people that we disagree with?

(I should, of course, have said "take the 'p'" rather than offend, there, since you'd clarified that... and I agree that the difference is important to what you were doing!)

Look guys, if you think that the post was racially offensive, at least be principled and also claim that Richard Pryor, Chris Rock, Gina (from the 'black-race' comedy show 3G), Lenny Henry, Tupac, Talib Kweli, Lupe Fiasco, Styles P, Nas, Common, H. Rap Brown, and Drag-On are also racist, not to name thousands of others whom I could.

And if you don't recognise any of those names, I strongly suggest that you google-image them. Because the basis upon which you accuse Bob's post of being racist should logically apply to them equally.

Failure to make such claims about these people when you're happy to make them about Bob and Unity, simply demonstrates your irrationality.

*1*

The problem is, Scrybe, that the Labour Party and Lib Dems have made a political career out of sanctimoniously jumping down the throats of Tories who do far less than what idiotic Bob Piper has done.

Imagine the storm if it had been a Tory who had blacked up Gordon Brown? Remember the controversy surrounding a Tory cllr who just forwarded an email joke to collegues? Even the black community said the reaction was overblown, yet Labour and the Lib Dems contrived a ballistic response, branding the Tory party racist.

I can remember a Tory councillor, it may have been a leader or deputy leader of a council, who was sacked and taken to the standards board for having a stuffed gollywog doll on his desk. Again, cue the spitting, hysterical vitriol!

If Labour want to be consistent with their own hyped up attitude towards political correctness they should immediately suspend this fool. Anything else would be rank hypocricy.

Rightwingery,

As I said on an earlier post (now removed, since it had the Cameron pic on it), I am black and I have suffered serious racism. In addition to general name-calling, I and my family spent four years (I was aged 10-14) being physically attacked, robbed, having racist graffiti daubed on our house and arson attacks, so I'm hradly insensitive to the offence that can be caused by racism.

As I said on a post on MoT, the Liberals and Labour have had racist members or, at least, members whose position on race relations are rather qestionable. I refer you to the Liberal and Labour (Militant Tendency) councils of Liverpool circa 195-1985, as evidence.

I would draw a distinction between your first two examples. A Tory blacking up GB would be making a statement pertaining to Gordon Brown and not to black people, so the effect would not be racist. However, a Tory cllr sending an email from their council address containng a racist poem directed towards ethnic minorities would be doing something which could be perceived as racist. The same would apply if the cllr in question was Labour, LibDem, BNP, SNP, or anything else. I, as a member of the mysterious 'black community,' actually did find it rather disgusting that she had sent it. But I also found the comments of Ann Cryer (I think it was her, the MP for Keighley) regarding asian youths targetting white girls and getting them involved in drugs so they could have sex with them rather disgusting. The disgust is not on the basis of which party they are from.

As for having a stuffed gollywog on one's desk - I would find it rather disturbing, especially were I to be in this person's office to discuss a council matter. I would feel uncomfortable. The individual should be aware of the effect it might have and not have it on their desk, it is insensitive. But there was a point to the advert created by Unity, which overrides any initial discomfort the image may have caused. And the point was so obvious that even the idea of initial discomfort was for many people somewhat mitigated, in my opinion. For those who still felt discomfort, there is just cause for considering why that is and what point Unity was trying to convey.

However, your comments seem to have encapsulated the main thrust of complaint about the advert, and Bob's posting of it, namely that it is not at all about being offended by it possibly being racist, but rather wanting to take partisan shots and feeling this gives the opportunity to do so.

This was my initialy analysis of the 'outraged' comments posted about the advert, and one that has only been confirmed over the past few days.

As a final note regarding hypocisy. Your argument seems to be that it is okay for Tories to respond with mock outrage about Bob's post, since Labour people have reacted with outrage or mock outrage about things posted, done, or said by Tories, and that the Labour response to Tories is unfair.

If Labour is hypocritical in reacting harshly towards Tories over non-racist things, is it not equally hypocritical (if not more so) of Tories to react harshly towards Labour people over non-racist things on the basis that they do not appreciate receiving this response from lefties?

And with that, I'm off to watch my Richard Pryor Live In Concert DVD. I'd invite some Tories to join me, but I'm sure I'd only get offended if they laughed at it as much as I did.

Unfortunately Right Wingery, you're shooting the messenger here as regards the Standards Board, as Bob's on record several times as stating that matters like this should for the electorate to decide, not a bunch of central government appointed bureaucrats.

Before slating Bob with matters like that of Ellenor Bland's faux pas, you might take a look to see what, if anything he said on the subject to see if he is guilty of the hypocrisy you suggest.

As for the 'us Tories wouldn't get away with it', well that's a rod you've made for your own backs over the years.

Sorry, but that's the reality here, although again, from my personal perspective, if a Tory did do a blacked-up image of Gordon Brown, I'd be interested first and foremost in what the image wqas trying to convey and only then would I make a judgment as to whether it was intended to be racist or not.

Believe it or not - some of us in the Labour Party still retain the faculty of thinking for ourselves.

Unity - did you REALLY say that members of the Labour Party have the ability of independent thought??

That will be why labourhome.com is so inspiringly off-message then!

"Mike" 652pm 10/12/06 is about as wrong as wrong can be. Remortgaging homeowners are a minor problem. 95% of them do so for perfectly sound reasons (e.g. reducing their monthly repayments). Multiple storecard holders, people who borrow from doorstep lenders, credit card debtors, borrowers from careless and irresponsible banks... those are the big problem. And most of them are voluntarily disenfranchised sub-30-yearolds.

Get real! The "tosser" campaign raises some sensible issues and is, even now, ten times more than Nulab has done about a major problem. But then, Blair et al have some seriously vested interests with the lenders....

Labour's very own Robert Kilroy-Silk!

I am a life-long Labour supporter, and I am DISGUSTED by your actions. You have brought our Party into disrepute. You have materially damaged our standings. You are not a credit to the party. The Labour party is not about racism, we leave that to the BNP. You must offer your sincere and abject apology. Otherwise, I can see no future for you within Labour.

If you don't want to offend black people, you should also have qualms about offending Tories...

I mean, they are a minority after all... ;)

(seriously, I think people should just live with being offended. What is abhorrent is treating people differently on irrelevent matters - like skin colour, gender, sex, sexual orientation or indeed political persuasion in many areas (although obviously not politics))

As for Labour, they've always had racists in their midst. And homophobes. And sexists. Quite rightly it is now unacceptable within the party, and individuals don't reflect on the party as a whole. (I object to the very philosophy of the party, and argue that much of it will lead to discrimination naturally, but that's a different matter).

I don't think the picture was racist. It was ill-judged, and crude. I didn't think it was funny. It was offensive, but that shouldn't be a crime.

*shrugs* oh well.

And to comment on your leaving the world of blogging- its a shame. I don't read your blog, I'm sure I disagree with you on many many issues (being anti-socialist and anti-labour) but I will defend your right to say what you like and believe what you like. Its a shame that you feel hounded like this.

I hope that after a cooling off period you feel able to come back and blog again.

What a load of twoddle. The Tory bloggers have been taking lessons from the US on being disingenuous. Kicking up a fuss when none exists.

Bob Mitchell, like many self-righteous intellectual pygmies, does not speak for the LP anymore than I speak for the mineworkers of Argentina. Off your high-horse pillock.

I though the Tories were against PC bollocks? You have let your side down numbnuts. Libertarianism my arse.

i know bob piper personally and as a mixed race person can assure every uptight one of you that he's definitely not racist and would never want to offend anybody. he and his whole family are some of the most accepting and welcoming people i've ever had met.

people need to stop wasting their lives worrying about whats politically correct and lighten up. havent you people ever heard of satire?

Sev... that's really, really sweet of you. I'll give you a big kiss next time you're round (or is that being sexist?)

That's a great post Sev. I agree wholeheartedly. This is a very nasty campaign by a few very insular Tories.